Join in our Sentencing Debate

CTC's Road Justice campaign held a live Sentencing debate on 13 June 2014, at the Chamber at 7 Bedford Row, we have published a transcript of the social media below


  CTC Sentencing Debate (06/13/2014) 
11:09
Therese Bjorn: 

Kaya Burgess says thanks to everyone taking part - both in the room and via Twitter. Also thanks also from CTC to anyone tweeting and taking part.

Friday June 13, 2014 11:09 Therese Bjorn
11:09
Julie Rand CTC: 

Met Police respond. Cites amount of extra work for prosecuting such offences eg breaking 20mph limits. Martin agrees insufficient resources are given to Met but it is worth taking chance of prosecuting some minor offences.

Friday June 13, 2014 11:09 Julie Rand CTC
11:08
Cherry Allan: 

Martin Porter: police seem to be more willing now to issue FPNs to drivers for infringing ASLs - and 20 mph limits.

Friday June 13, 2014 11:08 Cherry Allan
11:07
Julie Rand CTC: 

Martin asked police sergeant why anyone isn't prosecuted for using advanced stop box and was told because penalty is disproportionate to offence. Now police are handing out FPNs for such behaviour after calls from APPCG and also enforcing 20mph limits. ACPO guidelines have changed to reflect this. Agrees with starting from bottom. Consequences of careless and dangerous driving are not treated seriously.

Friday June 13, 2014 11:07 Julie Rand CTC
11:05
Julie Rand CTC: 

Martin also mentions Bikeability, an alien concept to general population. Cheryl emphasises conviction rate is high in these instances. Only one other offence has higher rate of conviction. Simeon says we should start low and go higher eg motorists who use cycle lanes are never prosecuted and it is a safety rather than convenience issue. Should be a trickle down effect to put this point across.

Friday June 13, 2014 11:05 Julie Rand CTC
11:05
Therese Bjorn: 

Maskrey: we ought to focus on low and work up. Most motorists are never prosecuted for offences that are relatively regarded as trivial, but it is a safety issues and that's why authorities take it seriously.

Friday June 13, 2014 11:05 Therese Bjorn
11:04
@S_CPeace bikeability education needed in the court room @MartinPorter6 #CTCdebate
Friday June 13, 2014 11:04 S-C Peace
11:03
#ctcdebate @MartinPorter6 - jury verdicts in cases where cyclist is victim often influenced by misconceptions abt cycling throughout case
Friday June 13, 2014 11:03 CTC
11:02
Julie Rand CTC: 

Kaya talks about hi-viz, helmets and impact on standard of evidence. Martin says jury verdicts can be surprising as jurors don't have experience of cycling. Gives example of driver who had sun in his eyes and misconceptions about cyclists' behaviour. Somebody in court should have been educated about cycling and understood cyclists' perspective.

Friday June 13, 2014 11:02 Julie Rand CTC
11:02
CTC Moderator: 

@kayaburgess is it harder to get a jury conviction if the jury are more likelyto be driver than cyclist?

Friday June 13, 2014 11:02 CTC Moderator
11:00
CTC Moderator: 

@kayaburgess - what is the actual use of hivis on a bright day?

Friday June 13, 2014 11:00 CTC Moderator
11:00
Julie Rand CTC: 

Martin says law should start from point of view of deliberate risk-taking. Strict liability in criminal context doesn't sit well though may do in civil context. Simeon says simple fact of collision can't give rise to a criminal conviction. CPS would have trouble with burden of proof.

Friday June 13, 2014 11:00 Julie Rand CTC
10:59
@parimalkumar yeah, but #CTCdebate is about sentencing, not detection.
Friday June 13, 2014 10:59 Bill Chidley
10:58
Therese Bjorn: 

Martin Porter answers: in criminal cases you have a presumption of innocent principle. But strict liability doesn't sit very well together in a criminal context.

Friday June 13, 2014 10:58 Therese Bjorn
10:58
Bob Davis #ctcdebate We are in quite a mess : poor driver wins while the cyclist usually loses. Driving is endemically dangerous
Friday June 13, 2014 10:58 LdnCyclingCampaign
10:58
Friday June 13, 2014 10:58 Seamus Kelly
10:58
#ctcdebate police, CPS et all need to focus on increasing detection & prosecution of low order driving infringements. Catch dngrs ppl early.
Friday June 13, 2014 10:58 Parimal Allez Kumar
10:58
Julie Rand CTC: 

Robert Davies chair of road danger reduction forum asks about consequences and behaviour - vast majority of cases of speeding aren't caught at all for example and aren't enforced. When worst happens have to prove intent. We need something more radical to get over the idea that driving is potentially dangerous. The burden of responsibility should be put more securely on motorist.



Friday June 13, 2014 10:58 Julie Rand CTC
10:56
Compulsory driving lessons and licence resits for anyone who gets 9 points. #ctcdebate
Friday June 13, 2014 10:56 Alex Hamilton
10:56
Focus on "momentary inattention", often used by judges when sentencing driving offences to justify lowest possible sentences #CTCdebate
Friday June 13, 2014 10:56 Bill Chidley
10:54
Julie Rand CTC: 

He believes momentary inattention should be what it is. Thinks this is used too often as a defence.

Friday June 13, 2014 10:54 Julie Rand CTC
10:54
Therese Bjorn: 

Porter: this isn't a unique case and momentary inattention is only a moment - a couple of seconds.

Friday June 13, 2014 10:54 Therese Bjorn
10:54
Shouldn't failing to look at a junction, hitting a cyclist from behind then driving over the cyclist be DANGEROUS driving? #CTCdebate
Friday June 13, 2014 10:54 S-C Peace
10:53
Therese Bjorn: 

Martin Porter: thinks this happens much more often than it should. Offence has been described as momentary inattention so therefore is lower end of offences.

Friday June 13, 2014 10:53 Therese Bjorn
10:53
Julie Rand CTC: 

Paul Kitson from Slater and Gordon. Should more guidance given to jury on dangerous driving? Gives example of cyclist killed by driver who saw him for 13 seconds. Judge described this as momentary inattention. Simeon agrees judge got this wrong. Inference was driver was simply not looking for an inexplicable reason. Seems to be a clear case of recklessness, which driver should be required to explain. Martin thinks this happens more frequently than it should. Gives examples of newspaper reports of such cases.

Friday June 13, 2014 10:53 Julie Rand CTC
10:53
@KatyLeeHarrison #ctcdebate Consider excellent Scots sfty ad that was witheld due to misperception of cyclist road position & lack of helmet
Friday June 13, 2014 10:53 RobinJRance
10:53
Issue coming out of #CTCdebate very clear: sentencing is complex. education & guidance key. #roadsafety
Friday June 13, 2014 10:53 Katy Lee Harrison
10:52
Therese Bjorn: 

Simeon Maskrey QC: They got it wrong, because 13 seconds is not momentarily inattention! This is then a case of recklessness and not caring about other road users. Why wasn't he watching the road for 13 seconds?

Friday June 13, 2014 10:52 Therese Bjorn
10:50
Therese Bjorn: 

Kaya: 15 min for questions from the floor.

Friday June 13, 2014 10:50 Therese Bjorn
10:50
Julie Rand CTC: 

Cheryl thinks outcome will be a higher sentence. Kaya asks for questions from the floor.

Friday June 13, 2014 10:50 Julie Rand CTC
10:49
Julie Rand CTC: 

Kaya asks last question regarding presence of vulnerable road users. Sally says judges ought to be taking this into account as a possible aggravating factor. Cheryl says there should be consistency across the board. Martin doesn't think it matters if it comes in initially or not - it's a matter for judge to decide level of case. Can't be added as an aggravating feature as well.

Friday June 13, 2014 10:49 Julie Rand CTC
10:49
cdunne81: 

question: what about elderly drivers? My wife was killed and I was injured by a 93 year old. Given the discarded crown case of death by dangerous driving last year I this case must be part of the 14% statistic for non conviction quoted above.

Friday June 13, 2014 10:49 cdunne81
10:47
#ctcdebate Serious injury sounds unserious compared to death but consequences often catastrophic.Pls remember this in sentencing guidelines.
Friday June 13, 2014 10:47 Bridget Walton
10:47
1 driver makes series of impacts on 1 cyclist causing loss of job, lifestyle, physical & psychological injuries. Is this careless #CTCdebate
Friday June 13, 2014 10:47 S-C Peace
10:47
Martin Porter QC the Prosecutors do not always follow own guidance in allowing charge of death by careless instead of dangerous #ctcdebate
Friday June 13, 2014 10:47 LdnCyclingCampaign
10:47
… Note, remarkably, *no penalty* for driving without insurance when rendering someone unable to live without constant assistance. #CTCdebate
Friday June 13, 2014 10:47 Bez
10:47
Crown Prosecution Service rep denies poor sentencing record #ctcdebate
Friday June 13, 2014 10:47 LdnCyclingCampaign
10:46
CPS rep debating directly with @MartinPorter6 on failures to prosecute for dangerous driving - asserts opposite is the case #CTCdebate
Friday June 13, 2014 10:46 Bill Chidley
10:46
CTC Moderator: 

Should the presence of vulnerable road users be a factor that aggravates a sentence instead?

Friday June 13, 2014 10:46 CTC Moderator
10:45
Therese Bjorn: 

CPS represents responds: let's wait and see what comes out of the thematic review. But there has been evidence of overcharging by the police. I can't mention specific cases, but sure that audience would be aware of cases that the CPS has taken on.

Friday June 13, 2014 10:45 Therese Bjorn
10:45
Julie Rand CTC: 

Martin says in his experience CPS aren't good at following own guidance if they can get an admission of careless rather than dangerous driving eg when overtaking despite the consequences. He finds this difficult to comprehend. CPS representative responds. Categorically says there is the reverse situation may be reality and overcharging is carried out in eg some high profile cases. A senior lawyer has to take charging decisions at high level in such cases.

Friday June 13, 2014 10:45 Julie Rand CTC
10:45
PaulJRobinson: 

Driving bans alone aren't sufficient as they encourages further illegality when ignored. Must be used in addition to much more severe penalties.

Friday June 13, 2014 10:45 PaulJRobinson
10:44
Simeon Maskey QC plea of death by carelessness can lead to lower sentence when driving is clearly dangerous #ctcdebate
Friday June 13, 2014 10:44 LdnCyclingCampaign
10:43
Alicia Thompson Slater&Gordon lawyers- sentences for 'lesser' offences given by magistrates are extremely weak, shld be reviewed #ctcdebate
Friday June 13, 2014 10:43 CTC
10:43
Struck by how well the 2 QCs on the #CTCdebate panel are able to project their voices - courtroom experience...
Friday June 13, 2014 10:43 Bill Chidley
10:43
#CTCdebate Auction of vehicle by police preferable to crushing. Proceeds should go to a victim / family or to fund road safety initiatives.
Friday June 13, 2014 10:43 James Holloway
10:43
Sentencing council says nothing is off the books for sentencing guidelines review - it may cover lesser offences as well #ctcdebate
Friday June 13, 2014 10:43 CTC
10:43
@BiddyBike that's probably one that should be directed at @MoJGovUK, who are conducting review - Neil Stevenson in audience at #CTCdebate
Friday June 13, 2014 10:43 Bill Chidley
10:42
CTC Moderator: 

Simeon say hugely. Judges can have hands tied by CPS

Friday June 13, 2014 10:42 CTC Moderator
10:42
Julie Rand CTC: 

Twitter questions - how much sentencing reflected by CPS accepting guilty please for careless driving? Simeon says enormously has can only sentence for charged offence. Magistrate might not be aware of background to case. CPS have to think about proof and evidence. Sally says there is less plea bargaining. Outlines cases where death by careless rather than death by dangerous driving where heard.

Friday June 13, 2014 10:42 Julie Rand CTC
10:41
CTC Moderator: 

twitter question How much is sentencing affected by CPS accepting guilty pleas 4 'careless' offences when driving was clearly 'dangerous'?#ctcdebate

Friday June 13, 2014 10:41 CTC Moderator
10:40
CTC Moderator: 

Sentencing review - the scope of the review to be decided

Friday June 13, 2014 10:40 CTC Moderator
10:40
Julie Rand CTC: 

Government spokesman explains that they are reviewing lesser offences as well in addition to Sentencing Council review.

Friday June 13, 2014 10:40 Julie Rand CTC
10:39
Therese Bjorn: 

Cheryl Thomas: thinks that the lesser offences would be reviewed. There has been recent guidelines for these offences for the Magistrate Courts - there are two systems. One for magistrates and one for more serious offences that are looked at in Crown Courts.

Friday June 13, 2014 10:39 Therese Bjorn
10:38
Julie Rand CTC: 

A question about lesser sentences from audience in regards serious offences. Should they be incorporated into the sentencing review? Cheryl says there's a statuary duty to review these guidelines in the magistrates' court.

Friday June 13, 2014 10:38 Julie Rand CTC
10:38
Thanks for signing #roadjustice police petition 12,500+ #CTCdebate 13.06.14 u can still sign roadjustice.org.uk/police-petition m.youtube.com/watch?v=dIbJeD…
Friday June 13, 2014 10:38 S-C Peace
10:38
CTC Moderator: 

Does the panel think the review should be widened to cover other offences (e.g. careless driving)?

Friday June 13, 2014 10:38 CTC Moderator
10:37
CTC Moderator: 

The Sentencing Council’s planned review of sentences will only cover the most serious offences: causing death and serious injury by driving and dangerous driving.

Friday June 13, 2014 10:37 CTC Moderator
10:36
Julie Rand CTC: 

Cheryl speaks about willingness of jurors to convict in cases where custodial sentences are scrapped. She doesn't think this would be relevant.

Friday June 13, 2014 10:36 Julie Rand CTC
10:36
Cheryl Thomas - jurors aren't provided w/ info abt possible sentences, so shouldn't convict based on potential sentence #ctcdebate
Friday June 13, 2014 10:36 CTC
10:35
@KatyLeeHarrison sentencing is also means of educating people as to what standard of behaviour is required by society #CTCdebate
Friday June 13, 2014 10:35 Bill Chidley
10:35
Repeat offenders hide info from insurers this should not be allowed to happen #CTCdebate
Friday June 13, 2014 10:35 S-C Peace
10:34
Therese Bjorn: 

Cheryl Thomas: spoke to circuit judges before coming here today. At the moment many don't disclose to insurers convictions. So their premiums don't go up. The insurance would be invalid if you have lied to your insurance company.

Friday June 13, 2014 10:34 Therese Bjorn
10:34
Julie Rand CTC: 

Martin gives example of client who didn't disclose previous conviction and prosecutor didn't flag it up either.

Friday June 13, 2014 10:34 Julie Rand CTC
10:34
ALL road users have a responsibility for safety on the road and it should be taken seriously #CTCdebate
Friday June 13, 2014 10:34 m00 c0w
10:34
Julie Rand CTC: 

Cheryl talks about disclosure. Simeon says you have a duty to disclose convictions to insurers, Cheryl says magistrates see cases where offenders haven't disclosed past history to insurers.



Friday June 13, 2014 10:34 Julie Rand CTC
10:33
The word "education" has only featured briefly but how important is education in protecting people on our roads? #ctcdebate #roadsafety
Friday June 13, 2014 10:33 Katy Lee Harrison
10:33
Martin Porter QC quite correct stating that drivers should think about consequences when driving with excess points on licence #ctcdebate
Friday June 13, 2014 10:33 Col - CB69
10:33
Uninsured drivers: also need some semblance of bad driving? Must avoid it being used as "technical" sentence- Sally Cunningham #CTCdebate
Friday June 13, 2014 10:33 Katy Lee Harrison
10:33
CTC Moderator: 

How hard is it to lose your licence? One in 8 drivers in 2012 who should have had a "manditory" ban did not receive one

Friday June 13, 2014 10:33 CTC Moderator
10:32
Julie Rand CTC: 

Martin says there should come a point court should reflect consequences back to offender so they shouldn't be able to carry on driving. They should think about consequences before committing the offence.

Friday June 13, 2014 10:32 Julie Rand CTC
10:31
Therese Bjorn: 

Martin Porter: Offender will say that he or she will lose his job if licence is taken away, and the court very often goes, okay, I'll give you 3 points. And this issue of needing a car, is something the offender should have thought about before the offence. It shouldn't an absolution!

Friday June 13, 2014 10:31 Therese Bjorn
10:31
Cherry Allan: 

Martin Porter QC: pleas of hardship too often help drivers avoid disqualification.

Friday June 13, 2014 10:31 Cherry Allan
10:30
CTC Moderator: 

Simeon says its often a communication issue between the courts that persons end up with high points levels but no ban

Friday June 13, 2014 10:30 CTC Moderator
10:29
CTC Moderator: 

Why are so many drivers with exorbitant numbers of penalty points not banned, and why are those who flout bans regularly given further bans?

Friday June 13, 2014 10:29 CTC Moderator
10:28
Julie Rand CTC: 

Kaya asks if there is a semantic problem with the word 'dangerous'? Simeon says pulling out of a junction without looking is dangerous but does it fall well below standard expected? It should be divided into errors of judgment requiring education and driving where the driver didn't care about consequences of poor driving.

Friday June 13, 2014 10:28 Julie Rand CTC
10:27
Therese Bjorn: 

Sally Kyd Cunningham: can see the case for coming down hard on disqualified drivers, who keep driving. Research poll on public opinion: death caused whilst disqualified - public thought this should be punished much harder.

Friday June 13, 2014 10:27 Therese Bjorn
10:27
Drivers at fault should have to prove their innocence it should not be assumed #CTCdebate
Friday June 13, 2014 10:27 S-C Peace
10:26
Julie Rand CTC: 

Sally gives example of inadvertent uninsured person who was involved in a collision - shouldn't be treated as seriously as an insured person. Also example of driver who killed a heroin user who crashed into him by crossing to wrong side of road. Can see argument for coming down hard on disqualified drivers who know they are disqualified.

Friday June 13, 2014 10:26 Julie Rand CTC
10:25
Cyclist deaths usually caused by risk taking drivers - Martin Porter QC #ctcdebate
Friday June 13, 2014 10:25 Paul Kitson
10:25
Therese Bjorn: 

Sally Kyd Cunningham: So many problems with people driving without a licence or uninsured. Case of person, whose insurance was on direct debit but hadn't gone through. Someone else drove into him and died.

Friday June 13, 2014 10:25 Therese Bjorn
10:25
CTC Moderator
Friday June 13, 2014 10:25 
10:24
Simeon Maskrey QC suggest that burden of proof should be on drivers to prove that proven bad driving wasn't deliberate #CTCdebate
Friday June 13, 2014 10:24 Bill Chidley
10:23
#ctcdebate vehicles involved in incident likely to be damaged.Uninsured unlicensed drivers of low value. Don't believe crushing is effective
Friday June 13, 2014 10:23 RobinJRance
10:23
Martin Porter: If you see a vulnerable road user then drivers' level of care should go up #CTCdebate
Friday June 13, 2014 10:23 LdnCyclingCampaign
10:23
Julie Rand CTC: 

Simeon responds that cases must be proven beyond reasonable doubt - not sure this is sacrosanct. Driver should prove it wasn't deliberate.

Friday June 13, 2014 10:23 Julie Rand CTC
10:22
CTC Moderator
In 2013 the average fine went UP to £160..
Friday June 13, 2014 10:22 
10:22
Julie Rand CTC: 

Martin says people who deliberately take a risk and bad consequences result should have a heavy penalty. Used to be undue leniency rather than undue severity so Parliament intervened - complex moral issues. Suspects there is more deliberate bad driving than courts recognise and deliberate risk taking drivers are often charged with careless behaviour. Thinks it's rare it's totally an error of judgement.

Friday June 13, 2014 10:22 Julie Rand CTC
10:22
Therese Bjorn: 

Martin Porter: There are offences that deal with cases that have different consequences - that is death by dangerous driving. That is the current state of affairs. There is a deliberate element of driving in far more cases than we think. People are in the habit of deliberately taking risk, but very hard to prove that it was a deliberate risk and not an 'error of judgement'. So education is key.

Friday June 13, 2014 10:22 Therese Bjorn
10:20
#CTCdebate What direction for Magistrates with pleas from drivers that car is required for business when license ban is being considered?
Friday June 13, 2014 10:20 Cyclistie
10:20
CTC Moderator
In 2013 twice as many bans were given, but that was ONLY 6%
Friday June 13, 2014 10:20 
10:18
Therese Bjorn: 

Sentence to reflect this kind of crime: Simeon Maskrey QC says: driver that doesn't have a licence - driver is being reckless. And is saying: I do not care about you.

Friday June 13, 2014 10:18 Therese Bjorn
10:18
Martin Porter QC: More bans should include crushing car to remove opportunity for offender to get back behind the wheel #CTCdebate
Friday June 13, 2014 10:18 Tom Gardner
10:18
Julie Rand CTC: 

Katy Harrison asks should sentences be raised for uninsured and unlicenced drivers who kill? The intent may be different but consequences are equally grave. Simeon says disqualified driver should be sent to prison irrespective of consequences. If uninsured, should be treated same as insured drivers depending on actions. Also drunk drivers are deliberately reckless but different to unlicenced driver who hasn't passed test yet.

Friday June 13, 2014 10:18 Julie Rand CTC
10:17
#ctcdebate we should see more vehicles crushed in cases of dangerous driving to ensure bans are adhered to - Martin Porter QC
Friday June 13, 2014 10:17 Laura Laker
10:17
Martin Porter QC - those who drive whlist disqualified should have vehicles confiscated and crushed. Good point! #CTCdebate
Friday June 13, 2014 10:17 Paul Kitson
10:17
.@MartinPorter6 - drivers who drive when disqualified should have their vehicles crushed #ctcdebate
Friday June 13, 2014 10:17 CTC
10:17
Martin Porter #ctcdebate confiscation or destruction of car used in #roadcrime makes driving bans enforceable
Friday June 13, 2014 10:17 LdnCyclingCampaign
10:16
CTC Moderator: 

Is it time that sentences for those who kill whilst uninsured or unlicensed to be raised in order to reflect their severity?

Friday June 13, 2014 10:16 CTC Moderator
10:15
Therese Bjorn: 

Porter: A real problem of enforcement of driving bans - cases of serial offenders. For instance, a motorcyclists who continually ignored driving bans. Would then like to see offenders sent to prison.

Friday June 13, 2014 10:15 Therese Bjorn
10:15
Cherry Allan: 

Chris Brace: sentencers have to remain impartial - so they need to know what penalties really work so that they can act objectively.

Friday June 13, 2014 10:15 Cherry Allan
10:15
Julie Rand CTC: 

Rhia Weston from CTC asks question as to whether other punitive measures could be used more is often such as vehicle confiscation.

Martin Porter would like to see confiscation if a ban is imposed as it's easier to enforce such driving bans. Gives example where somebody ignored repeated bans. Vehicles should be removed and crushed where longer bans imposed.

Friday June 13, 2014 10:15 Julie Rand CTC
10:14
CTC Moderator: 

There has been a sharp drop in bans recently.

Friday June 13, 2014 10:14 CTC Moderator
10:14
Therese Bjorn: 

We need to look at which punishments work - what impacts on the behaviour of the offender. Martin Porter: would like to see much more confiscation of vehicles from offenders.

Friday June 13, 2014 10:14 Therese Bjorn
10:13
@CTC_Cyclists No, it's not. Evidence that prevention brought about more by effectiveness of detection than level of punishment #ctcdebate
Friday June 13, 2014 10:13 Paul Cotterill
10:12
CTC Moderator: 

Rhia Weston asks - Can the panel suggest what action should be taken to encourage judges to use non-custodial sentencing alternatives more often?

Friday June 13, 2014 10:12 CTC Moderator
10:12
Julie Rand CTC: 

Sally says magistrates don't, she believes, like dealing with cases where deaths are involved.



Friday June 13, 2014 10:12 Julie Rand CTC
10:12
@CTC_Cyclists public transport drivers intimidate with aggressive/dangerous driving should be suspended at a minimum #ctcdebate
Friday June 13, 2014 10:12 m00 c0w
10:11
Cherry Allan: 

Sally Kyd Cunningham: Magistrates don't like dealing with 'death' cases - so tend to pass them to Crown Ct.

Friday June 13, 2014 10:11 Cherry Allan
10:10
CTC Moderator: 

Which sentences are more appropriate for offences tried in the Magistrates’ courts - higher fines and longer prison terms or alternative non-custodial options?

Friday June 13, 2014 10:10 CTC Moderator
10:09
Julie Rand CTC: 

Kaya asks second question to Chris Brace. Are higher fines and longer prison terms or alternative custodial options more appropriate sentences for offences tried in Magistrates' courts?

Magistrates are pushing for 12-month sentencing powers. Will also look at reform and rehabilitation of offender.

Friday June 13, 2014 10:09 Julie Rand CTC
10:07
CTC Moderator: 

can the panel suggest what action should be taken to encourage judges to use non-custodial sentencing alternatives more often?

Friday June 13, 2014 10:07 CTC Moderator
10:06
CTC Moderator: 

The Government has announced it plans to give Magistrates the power to impose much larger fines for various driving offences, and there is legislation in place – but not enacted - to allow magistrates to sentence offenders for up to 12 months.

Friday June 13, 2014 10:06 CTC Moderator
10:06
Therese Bjorn: 

Simeon Maskrey QC: but many cases where a car is used as a weapon, just not a successful one. Drove deliberately close or cut of the cyclist, but car didn't hit the cyclist.

Friday June 13, 2014 10:06 Therese Bjorn
10:06
Julie Rand CTC: 

Kaya outlines case in Bristol of cyclist driven at by bus driver. Simeon says it's more prevalent than people think. Gives examples of cab driver deliberately driving close to give a fright. Won't go to Crown Court.

Friday June 13, 2014 10:06 Julie Rand CTC
10:06
Cherry Allan: 

Simeon Maskrey QC: believes using a vehicle as a weapon is more common than most people think.

Friday June 13, 2014 10:06 Cherry Allan
10:06
On the other hand, conviction rate for manslaughter is much lower than for driving offences in jury cases Prof Cheryl Thomas #CTCdebate
Friday June 13, 2014 10:06 Bill Chidley
10:06
#ctcdebate Evidence strong that certainty of conviction more effective for prevention that level of punishment e.g. canadasafetycouncil.org/community-safe…
Friday June 13, 2014 10:06 Paul Cotterill
10:05
Raising sentences for killing on our roads is something we need. But we must seriously consider implications of any changes. #CTCdebate
Friday June 13, 2014 10:05 Katy Lee Harrison
10:05
Therese Bjorn: 

Kaya: bus driver in Bristol - cyclist and bus driver had an argument at junction. He was charged with dangerous driving and GBH, as he was deliberately driving his bus into the cyclist.

Friday June 13, 2014 10:05 Therese Bjorn
10:05
We are pleased to support @CTC_Cyclists #roadjustice campaign. Debating sentencing guidelines with @kayaburgess @MartinPorter6 #CTCdebate
Friday June 13, 2014 10:05 British Cycling
10:05
Julie Rand CTC: 

Cheryl says it might be desirable to go for manslaughter rather than death by dangerous driving so you can get a higher sentence but conviction rates drop considerably in such cases. Sally says justice system isn't just to hand out punishment but also to censure the offender and suggest manslaughter might be more appropriate but can understand why it isn't used more.

Friday June 13, 2014 10:05 Julie Rand CTC
10:04
'Threatening behaviour with a vehicle should be treated as a violent offence' couldn't agree more #ctcdebate
Friday June 13, 2014 10:04 Chris Field
10:03
Therese Bjorn: 

Cheryl Thomas: conviction rate for man slaughter is 40 % but for death for dangerous driving is 86% - so more likely to get a conviction.

Friday June 13, 2014 10:03 Therese Bjorn
10:03
Simeon Maskrey QC - where someone uses vehicle as a weapon needs to be treated as a crime not as a motoring offence - I agree! #CTCdebate
Friday June 13, 2014 10:03 Paul Kitson
10:03
OK @BiddyBike @london_cycling #ctcdebate but see both sides, get together & force change 2 #planning #roads & safe#cycleroutes not motorists
Friday June 13, 2014 10:03 Paul Carder
10:02
We should be looking at cases where a vehicle has been used as a weapon as a crime of violence - Simeon Maskrey QC #CTCdebate
Friday June 13, 2014 10:02 Bill Chidley
10:02
Julie Rand CTC: 

A list of questions is presented to audience and panel.

Shouldn't sentencing be based on the offence, not its consequences?
Simeon answers by explaining some consequences are entirely based on luck - it's difficult to explain this to jury. Thinks focus should be on behaviour not on consequences.

Sally would agree. Suggests focusing on blameworthiness rather than consequences. Comparison should be with behaviour of driver - there is a mismatch between state of mind of driver and the consequences. Defendant need not have foreseen consequences in any way. This is why this area is particularly difficult.

Kaya comments on this. Is distinction between malicious behaviour and carelessness in peforming a manoeuvre that was a misjudgement?

Simeon says judges are constrained by maximum sentences as worse cases can be round the corner. Deliberate dangerous driving offences should be treated as acts of violence.












Friday June 13, 2014 10:02 Julie Rand CTC
10:02
If this panel were making cycle policy we would all be much safer on our roads. #CTCdebate pic.twitter.com/yfmewGKfCR

Friday June 13, 2014 10:02 Paul Tuohy
10:02
CTC Moderator: 

simeon says #ctcdebate it's hard to give the maximum sentence as there is always another case around the corner that seems worse

Friday June 13, 2014 10:02 CTC Moderator
10:00
Friday June 13, 2014 10:00 CTC
09:59
Simeon Maskrey QC - it is wrong that the focus is often on the consequences of driving rather than the standard of driving #CTCdebate
Friday June 13, 2014 09:59 Paul Kitson
09:59
@london_cycling #ctcdebate can you outline main points for those that cannot follow online?
Friday June 13, 2014 09:59 Martin Blick
 
CTC Moderator: 

we're aiming to have an article up this afternoon

  CTC Moderator
09:58
@BritishCycling hi guys. Can you retweet the live debate streaming now on Road Justice by @CTC_Cyclists #CTCdebate
Friday June 13, 2014 09:58 Paul Tuohy
 
CTC Moderator: 

they did about 5 mins ago :)

  CTC Moderator
09:58
at #ctcdebate @CTC_Cyclists Cheryl Thomas- juries want written directions on law to clarify difference btwn #dangerous & #careless driving
Friday June 13, 2014 09:58 LdnCyclingCampaign
09:57
#CTCdebate these lawyers are good clear bright and so articulate erm our multi media less so still searching for a slide!
Friday June 13, 2014 09:57 David Cox
09:56
Therese Bjorn: 

Simeon Maskrey QC: We focus too much on consequences - lives have been ruined, the life of families have been ruined. But hard to explain that to a family whose loved one has died.

Friday June 13, 2014 09:56 Therese Bjorn
09:55
CTC Moderator: 

Is it right that there is such a huge discrepancy between the maximum and minimum sentences for driving that kills and equally bad driving that happens not to kill? Shouldn’t sentencing be based on the offence, not its consequences?

Friday June 13, 2014 09:55 CTC Moderator
09:55
CTC Moderator: 

The maximum sentence for causing death by dangerous driving is 14 years, yet only five years for causing serious injury by dangerous driving.

Friday June 13, 2014 09:55 CTC Moderator
09:54
Therese Bjorn: 

CPS representative: really useful to listen to the debate and the analysis.

Friday June 13, 2014 09:54 Therese Bjorn
09:53
Julie Rand CTC: 

Kaya asks for questions to clarify anything. Head of policy of Sentencing Council speaks from audience explaining her involvement and say not actively working on reviewing guidelines at the moment.

Friday June 13, 2014 09:53 Julie Rand CTC
09:53
Therese Bjorn: 

Sentencing Debate: Are looking to review the Sentencing Guidelines shortly, but not actively working on this at this moment.

Friday June 13, 2014 09:53 Therese Bjorn
09:53
CTC Moderator: 

Kaya Burgess asks Lissa Matthews and Nick Mann of the Sentencing Council for comment:

Friday June 13, 2014 09:53 CTC Moderator
09:52
Therese Bjorn: 

Kaya: We have representatives from the Sentencing Council and the CPS - is there anything that you would like to add to the debate?

Friday June 13, 2014 09:52 Therese Bjorn
09:52
Julie Rand CTC: 

Juries say they want written directions on law to help them understand exactly difference between careless and dangerous driving. Cheryl finishes by saying juries are not told in any cases what potential sentences for conviction would be.

Friday June 13, 2014 09:52 Julie Rand CTC
09:51
Cherry Allan: 

Cheryl: juries often actively want written directions on the law at trials - helps them understand the distinction between 'dangerous' and 'careless' driving.

Friday June 13, 2014 09:51 Cherry Allan
09:51
#ctcdebate live stream up and running!!
Friday June 13, 2014 09:51 CTC
09:50
Julie Rand CTC: 

Gives examples of numbers of convictions for specific driving offences. Amongst highest conviction rates for any offences. These are very robust figures.

Friday June 13, 2014 09:50 Julie Rand CTC
09:49
Therese Bjorn: 

Among the highest conviction rates for offences.

Friday June 13, 2014 09:49 Therese Bjorn
09:49
Therese Bjorn: 

Jury conviction rates compared to convictions for other offences in the Crown Court. So is among the highest conviction rate in the Crown Courts.

Friday June 13, 2014 09:49 Therese Bjorn
09:49
Cherry Allan: 

Cheryl Thomas: researches into Crown Court juries. Says it's inadvisable to predict how juries are likely to deal with offences. They convict in a large percentage of bad driving cases.

Friday June 13, 2014 09:49 Cherry Allan
09:49
cdunne81: 

I've finally got the live stream to work.

Friday June 13, 2014 09:49 cdunne81
09:48
Julie Rand CTC: 

Cheryl Thomas speaks about the role of the jury in 5% cases that take place in Crown Court. Explains what is known about how juries deal with specific driving offences. 2 members of UCL staff from same dept have been killed in last year while cycling. Research is only with crown courts in England and Wales - actual cases. Refers to cases in Road Justice report. No empirical evidence how juries deal with cases. Shows how juries deal with serious driving offences - overwhelming majority of drivers plead guilty. Overwhelming majority of juries convict ones that don't plead guilty.

Friday June 13, 2014 09:48 Julie Rand CTC
09:48
Therese Bjorn: 

Can share how juries deal with serious driving offences: defendants charged in the Crown Court - the majority plead guilty.

Friday June 13, 2014 09:48 Therese Bjorn
09:47
We are pleased to support @CTC_Cyclists #roadjustice campaign. Debating sentencing guidelines with @kayaburgess @MartinPorter6 #CTCdebate
Friday June 13, 2014 09:47 British Cycling
09:46
Therese Bjorn: 

Cheryl Thomas can explain how juries deal with the serious cases by a jury in the Crown Court. Has personal interest as two people from the Uni and from the same department was killed cycling in the last year.

Friday June 13, 2014 09:46 Therese Bjorn
09:44
Therese Bjorn: 

Cheryl Thomas is Professor of Judicial Studies at University College London and Director of the UCL Jury Project and Judicial Institute. She is a specialist in judicial studies and has conducted ground breaking research on juries, judicial making and the appointment and training of judges.

Friday June 13, 2014 09:44 Therese Bjorn
09:44
CTC Moderator: 

Cheryl Thomas, Professor of Judicial Studies at University College London and Director of the UCL Jury Project and Judicial Institute

Friday June 13, 2014 09:44 CTC Moderator
09:44
Julie Rand CTC: 

Discusses fixed penalty notices - proportion has remained steady. No cautions should be given to repeat offenders. Explains various sentences and how they are dealt with.

Friday June 13, 2014 09:44 Julie Rand CTC
09:44
Friday June 13, 2014 09:44 Pj
09:43
Cherry Allan: 

Chris Brace: proportion of FPNs (fixed penalty notices) growing. Moves afoot to deal with this and take appropriate cases to court instead.

Friday June 13, 2014 09:43 Cherry Allan
09:43
Therese Bjorn: 

Until 2008, fixed penalty notes have been rising. No cautions or fixed penalty for repeat offences - that the right cases are brought to court.

Friday June 13, 2014 09:43 Therese Bjorn
09:43
Cunningham says that England & Wales has most punitive sentences available for traffic crime in Europe! #CTCdebate
Friday June 13, 2014 09:43 Bill Chidley
09:42
Julie Rand CTC: 

Chris Brace now speaks. Speaks on behalf of Magistrates - they are volunteers and 22,000 of them sit in the country. Should have a minimum of 26 sittings or more. Outlines how they work. A majority out of 3 have to decide and have a legal adviser with them. He explains powers they have - can only sentence up to 6 months in custody. Dangerous driving goes to Crown Court.

Friday June 13, 2014 09:42 Julie Rand CTC
09:42
Therese Bjorn: 

95 % of cases end in Magistrates court. All summary motoring offences are hears in Magistrates Courts.

Friday June 13, 2014 09:42 Therese Bjorn
09:41
Cherry Allan: 

Sally: Why are England & Wales so punitive when it comes to driving offences - more so than much of the rest of Europe, e.g. The Netherlands? What makes E&W like this?

Friday June 13, 2014 09:41 Cherry Allan
09:41
Therese Bjorn: 

Chris Brace up next. He's Chief Exec at the Magistrates Association. All Magistrates are volunteers, and has a minimum of 26 sittings a year. When sitting on trials, they act as a mini jury.

Friday June 13, 2014 09:41 Therese Bjorn
09:40
CTC Moderator: 

Chris Brace, Chief Executive at the Magistrates Association

Friday June 13, 2014 09:40 CTC Moderator
09:39
Julie Rand CTC: 

They are really difficult cases for judges as mismatch between blameworthiness of perpetrator and victims' injuries and impact on them. Retribution must be proportionate - look at how we punish other offences of violence. Manslaughter average is 7 and a half year sentence. Lesser sentences can be given for mitigating factors. There has been a huge amount of change in sentencing but still no agreement it is the best it can get. The UK is the most punitive country in Europe - what is it about the English and Welsh that wants to make it ratchet it up? This is a question for juries. Sally finishes.

Friday June 13, 2014 09:39 Julie Rand CTC
09:37
Sally Cunningham- there should be less discrepancy in sentencing for driving offences & proportionality w/ other violent offences #ctcdebate
Friday June 13, 2014 09:37 CTC
09:37
Sally Kyd Cunningham, Professor of Law at London Uni says road traffic cases are some of the hardest cases for judges to sentence #CTCdebate
Friday June 13, 2014 09:37 Bill Chidley
09:36
Sally Cunningham- Police forces doing best road crash investigations are ones w/ traffic officers & detectives working on cases #ctcdebate
Friday June 13, 2014 09:36 CTC
09:36
Cherry Allan: 

Sally: Judges do find sentencing difficult in bad driving cases - too much discrepancy in the penalties handed down.

Friday June 13, 2014 09:36 Cherry Allan
09:36
Sally Cunningham - forces who combine traffic officers with CID officers are more effective in investigating traffic offences #CTCdebate
Friday June 13, 2014 09:36 Paul Kitson
09:36
Therese Bjorn: 

Another change is that we now have sentencing guidelines, so there are less discrepancies between sentences.

Friday June 13, 2014 09:36 Therese Bjorn
09:35
Cherry Allan: 

Sally: police and CPS communication not a 'well-oiled' machine, but getting better.

Friday June 13, 2014 09:35 Cherry Allan
09:34
Therese Bjorn: 

There has been changes when investigating serious traffic accidents: some forces use detectives and work better with the CPS. Not necessarily a well oiled machine but the criminal justice system in this area is getting better.

Friday June 13, 2014 09:34 Therese Bjorn
09:34
Julie Rand CTC: 

There is a massive difference in the way cases are dealt with now. A lot more detectives investigate cases and traffic officers too. The police work a lot better with the CPS. It's not a well-oiled machine but getting better. A lot of variation across the country.

Friday June 13, 2014 09:34 Julie Rand CTC
09:34
Can you get away with murder by using a car as a weapon? #drivingcrime #CTCdebate
Friday June 13, 2014 09:34 LdnCyclingCampaign
09:34
Sally Cunningham asks could you get away with murder using car as a weapon? #CTCdebate
Friday June 13, 2014 09:34 Paul Kitson
09:32
How much is sentencing affected by CPS accepting guilty pleas 4 'careless' offences when driving was clearly 'dangerous'? #ctcdebate
Friday June 13, 2014 09:32 Robin Lovelace
 
CTC Moderator: 

hi robin, thanks for the question. will try to get this into the Q&A

  CTC Moderator
09:32
Cherry Allan: 

Sally Kyd Cunningham: conducted research into whether you could get away with murder if you use a car do commit it.

Friday June 13, 2014 09:32 Cherry Allan
09:32
Therese Bjorn: 

interesting comment from a police officer from the Met -if you were a hit man, you should nick a car and drive over your victim. So set out to find out if this was true in her thesis.

Friday June 13, 2014 09:32 Therese Bjorn
09:32
Technical glitch - live streaming of #ctcdebate not currently working. We've got the IT guys on it trying to get it running.
Friday June 13, 2014 09:32 CTC
09:32
Julie Rand CTC: 

Sally Cunningham now speaks.

Friday June 13, 2014 09:32 Julie Rand CTC
09:31
"How do we protect people with sentencing?" Simeon Maskrey asks the question perfectly at #ctcdebate #roadsafety
Friday June 13, 2014 09:31 Katy Lee Harrison
09:30
Therese Bjorn: 

Next up is Sally Kyd Cunningham - she is Professor of Law at the University of Leicester. her main interest is road traffic offences. She agrees with Simeon Maskrey's analysis.

Friday June 13, 2014 09:30 Therese Bjorn
09:30
CTC Moderator: 

Sally Kyd Cunningham, Professor of Law at the University of Leicester

Friday June 13, 2014 09:30 CTC Moderator
09:29
Cherry Allan: 

Simeon: let's keep the consequences of bad driving in their place - what matters is education and punishment.

Friday June 13, 2014 09:29 Cherry Allan
09:29
Julie Rand CTC: 

The problem is people who drive deliberately and use vehicle as a weapon get slap on the wrist as it's a road traffic offence. Let's differentiate between careless and deliberate and keep consequences in their place. Education and punishment where necessary. Simeon finishes.

Friday June 13, 2014 09:29 Julie Rand CTC
09:28
Therese Bjorn: 

Dangerous driving has currently nothing to do with deliberateness. We fail to make the distinction from carelessness and a deliberate bad, violent driving where the car has been used as a weapon.

Friday June 13, 2014 09:28 Therese Bjorn
09:28
"If you have used your car as a weapon, then you should not be on the streets" Simeon Maskrey QC #CTCdebate 7br.co.uk/barristers-and…
Friday June 13, 2014 09:28 Bill Chidley
09:28
Simeon Maskrey QC 'carelessness and misjudgment must be dealt by education'. #CTCdebate
Friday June 13, 2014 09:28 Paul Tuohy
09:27
Julie Rand CTC: 

However, deliberate actions require much more than that. Gives examples of being attacked by a broken bottle - should be dealt with harshly. What if it's a one ton truck? This has a different perception of the seriousness. If I use my car as a weapon, they should be stopped from using the streets. Simeon believes distinction between careless and deliberateness is not made - education and punishment are different responses.

Friday June 13, 2014 09:27 Julie Rand CTC
09:27
Legal star Simon Maskrey on sentencing and "errors of judgement" on roads and in court? #ctcdebate #RoadJustice pic.twitter.com/1e9SskAr79

Friday June 13, 2014 09:27 David Cox
09:27
Simeon Maskrey: Ban incompetent drivers til they show they're competent enough to drive, they should take courses and re-tests #ctcdebate
Friday June 13, 2014 09:27 CTC
09:27
Cherry Allan: 

Simeon asks: why is a big truck on the streets considered to be less of a weapon than a broken bottle?

Friday June 13, 2014 09:27 Cherry Allan
09:26
Therese Bjorn: 

Carelessness is a matter of incompetence and therefore requires education, in my view. So ban this driver until he has been retrained and gained his competence.

Friday June 13, 2014 09:26 Therese Bjorn
09:26
'We are all guilty of carelessness.' #CTCdebate
Friday June 13, 2014 09:26 Kevin O'Sullivan
09:25
Julie Rand CTC: 

Used to be a clearer distinction - gives examples of careless and dangerous. Careless hasn't intended action but has made an error of judgement. Errors of judgement happen frequently and everybody does it. We are all guilty of carelessness - do we want people locked up if they are guilty of misjudgement? The consequences of misjudgement are serendipitous. People are banned until they show competence on the roads through education.

Friday June 13, 2014 09:25 Julie Rand CTC
09:25
Cherry Allan: 

Simeon says we're all guilty of carelessness - do you we want to lock up drivers who commit it serendipitously?

Friday June 13, 2014 09:25 Cherry Allan
09:24
Therese Bjorn: 

Simeon Maskrey QC: The problem at the moment is that there is not a significant distinction between careless driving and dangerous driving. Careless is simply an error of judgement. Carelessness we all do. We are all guilty of carelessness. The problem is that we link to carelessness to consequences. You pull out from a junction without having seen the cyclist and there could be a terrible consequence.

Friday June 13, 2014 09:24 Therese Bjorn
09:23
CTC Moderator: 

Simeon says he makes an error in judgement two or three times a day we are all guilty of carelessness.

Friday June 13, 2014 09:23 CTC Moderator
09:23
Simeon Maskrey QC _ sentencing is about prevention of offences and retribution #CTCdebate
Friday June 13, 2014 09:23 Paul Kitson
09:22
Julie Rand CTC: 

Kaya introduces other speakers. Cheryl Thomas is professor of judicial studies at the University of London. Each speaker will speak for about 5 mins. Simeon Maskrey QC speaks. He is a cyclist himself. What is purpose of sentencing - protection and retribution. How do we protect the public via sentencing? By punishing as a deterrent and ban or lock up so they can't do it again. It's also a route to education so they don't do it again. What is the problem with sentencing policy at the moment? No distinction between carelessness or deliberate dangerous driving.

Friday June 13, 2014 09:22 Julie Rand CTC
09:22
Thank you to @kayaburgess for introducing the panel of legal experts at the #ctcdebate
Friday June 13, 2014 09:22 CTC
09:21
ctc.org.uk/news/ctc-to-ho… #CTCdebate. Hearing how justice system fails to appropriately prosecute death and serious injury to cyclists.
Friday June 13, 2014 09:21 Paul Tuohy
09:21
CTC Moderator: 

simeon says he works within the legal system and is a cyclist tso he sees both sides. he says protection and retribution are what the public want.

Friday June 13, 2014 09:21 CTC Moderator
09:21
Cherry Allan: 

Protection of the public and retribution is the purpose of sentencing - Simeon Maskrey QC

Friday June 13, 2014 09:21 Cherry Allan
09:21
Judge (who cycles) who sentences driving offence is 1st person to speak after @MartinPorter6 & @kayaburgess #CTCdebate
Friday June 13, 2014 09:21 Bill Chidley
09:21
Therese Bjorn: 

Simeon Maskrey QC, is a barrister and a cyclist based at 7 Bedford Row. he is also a deputy High Court Judge and Recorder of the Crown Court (part time judge). As a judge he tries road traffic cases injured claimants seek to obtain compensation from insurance companies and where motorists are charged with causing death or serious injury.

Friday June 13, 2014 09:21 Therese Bjorn
09:19
CTC Moderator: 

Simeon Maskrey QC, a Deputy High Court Judge and Recorder of the Crown Court

Friday June 13, 2014 09:19 CTC Moderator
09:19
Therese Bjorn: 

Kaya is introducing the speakers: Chris Brace is Chief Exec of the Magistrates Association and represents the magistracy at the higher levels of government.

Friday June 13, 2014 09:19 Therese Bjorn
09:18
At the #CTCdebate on sentencing of traffic offences. Cynthia Barlow MBE @MartinPorter6, @kayaburgess, @CHAIRRDRF all here, amongst others.
Friday June 13, 2014 09:18 Bill Chidley
09:18
Causing death by careless driving: what I said when the offence was created. #CTCdebate
Friday June 13, 2014 09:18 Bill Chidley
09:18
Therese Bjorn: 

Kaya recounts the case of a driver, who killed two cyclists over a period of 30 years, but managed to avoid a prison sentence.

Friday June 13, 2014 09:18 Therese Bjorn
09:17
Martin Porter QC opens CTC road sentencing debate. Slater & Gordon's @Pkitson_lawyer due to speak shortly. #ctcdebate pic.twitter.com/ufVGxh7lFo

Friday June 13, 2014 09:17 Tom Gardner
09:17
Julie Rand CTC: 

Kaya Burgess thanks Martin and introduces his interest in the topic. Mentions Mary Bowers case. No malice borne by family to the driver, who was using hands free mobile to give instructions so not concentrating. Mary was visible to him. Lied to police about being on phone but only charged with careless not dangerous driving - no one really understood. There is a whole raft of other cases with similar lenient sentencing for driving offences. Example a taxi drove on with a cyclist on the bonnet - fined £35 for driving without due care and attention. Further cases supplied by Roger Geffen of CTC.

Friday June 13, 2014 09:17 Julie Rand CTC
09:17
Just ducked my head into the #CTCdebate on sentencing for driving offences - follow the hashtag and load this page: ctc.org.uk/join-in-our-se…
Friday June 13, 2014 09:17 Alex Ingram
09:17
Therese Bjorn: 

The driver who killed Mary was charged with dangerous driving, but had the option of careless driving. Kaya talks about watching the jury ask the judge what the difference was - brought home the point that not many understand the charges and the differences between them. But of course the different charges carry very different sentencing options.

Friday June 13, 2014 09:17 Therese Bjorn
09:17
CTC Moderator: 

police told @kayaburgess if you want to kill someone, do it with a car..

Friday June 13, 2014 09:17 CTC Moderator
09:15
Therese Bjorn: 

Kaya Burgess: I have already cycling around London as a student, but only came to campaigning about 2 1/2 years ago when we launched the Times campaign.

Friday June 13, 2014 09:15 Therese Bjorn
09:14
CTC Moderator: 

And now, Kaya Burgess, Journalist from The Times introducing the panel.

Friday June 13, 2014 09:14 CTC Moderator
09:14
Julie Rand CTC: 

CTC is launching two further reports today into sentencing and criminal justice. Jon Snow unable to be here but Kaya Burgess here in his place and is a very worthy replacement due to his high profile in cycle campaigning. Times journalist was hit by a lorry and driver received lenient sentence despite her severe injuries. Twitter followers can follow debate using #ctcdebate. Video will come later.

Friday June 13, 2014 09:14 Julie Rand CTC
09:13
CTC ModeratorCTC Moderator
Friday June 13, 2014 09:13 
09:13
CTC Moderator: 

This video telling the story of Sarah Charlotte and her experience of the justice system.

Friday June 13, 2014 09:13 CTC Moderator
09:13
CTC Moderator: 

people at the live debate wont see the video we were planning to show, however you can.

Friday June 13, 2014 09:13 CTC Moderator
09:12
Therese Bjorn: 

Kaya Burgess is chairing today's campaign - he has been one of the originators of the Times' campaign: Cities fit for Cycling

Friday June 13, 2014 09:12 Therese Bjorn
09:11
Therese Bjorn: 

CTC is launching a report today called 'The Courts and Sentencing'.

Friday June 13, 2014 09:11 Therese Bjorn
09:11
Therese Bjorn: 

Martin Porter: Aim is to keep bad drivers off the road for longer periods.

Friday June 13, 2014 09:11 Therese Bjorn
09:11
Julie Rand CTC: 

As driver usually appeared competent and magistrates took employment prospects into account. Sentencing guidelines are due to be reviewed but has been delayed by government. We must keep pressure up though. British Cycling are also interested as well. Must lobby to keep bad drivers off the roads for long periods.

Friday June 13, 2014 09:11 Julie Rand CTC
09:10
What is an appropriate length of driving ban for a death by driving conviction?
1 to 3 years

 ( 0% )

3 to 5 years

 ( 50% )

5 to 10 years

 ( 25% )

more than 10 years

 ( 0% )

life time ban

 ( 25% )


Friday June 13, 2014 09:10 
09:10
Now at Roads Justice Sentencing Debate Webinar #CTCdebate
Friday June 13, 2014 09:10 LdnCyclingCampaign
09:10
Therese Bjorn: 

Martin Porter: Typical of court of appeal to reduce the period of disqualification as they see it as a one of error rather than a pattern.

Friday June 13, 2014 09:10 Therese Bjorn
09:09
Therese Bjorn: 

Martin Porter QC - also known as the Cycling Silk - introduces the debate. Upon speaking to bereaved a family last week, there is a serious issue with regards to disqualification of drivers.

Friday June 13, 2014 09:09 Therese Bjorn
09:08
Julie Rand CTC: 

Judge has to have regard to sentencing guidelines. Hearing bereaved families last week, one of the complaints is about periods of disqualification. He explains how court of appeal looks at it in absence of sentencing guidelines on the subject. The main purpose is forward looking and preventative - then outlines a driver who killed a driver by falling asleep at wheel. Because no long history of poor driving, magistrates quashed 5 year ban for 2 year. Appeals are often allowed.

Friday June 13, 2014 09:08 Julie Rand CTC
09:08
@MartinPorter6 opens #CTCdebate road sentencing too lenient particularly vulnerable road users
Friday June 13, 2014 09:08 S-C Peace
09:07
#CTCdebate Road deaths rarely come in a vacuum - often a long history of negligence prior.Treat 'minor' road offences more seriously.
Friday June 13, 2014 09:07 Bridget Walton
09:07
Can we abolish "causing death by dangerous/careless driving" and prosecute it as manslaughter? #ctcdebate
Friday June 13, 2014 09:07 Mike Prior-Jones
09:06
Well, there's some serious knowledge in this room - I think it should be! @beztweets #CTCdebate
Friday June 13, 2014 09:06 Bill Chidley
09:06
Impressive panel at #ctcdebate to discuss the #ctc campaign to make roads safer. #roadsafety #sentencing pic.twitter.com/1p8ICX8bLi

Friday June 13, 2014 09:06 Katy Lee Harrison
09:06
Friday June 13, 2014 09:06 Martin Key
09:06
Julie Rand CTC: 

Martin Porter introduces the debate and the purpose of it. It is sponsored by Slater & Gordon. Sentencing is the focus of the debate. Sentences tend to be on the lenient side - examples in Road Justice booklets.



Friday June 13, 2014 09:06 Julie Rand CTC
09:05
Therese Bjorn: 

Good morning; the CTC sentencing debate is now live.

Friday June 13, 2014 09:05 Therese Bjorn
09:03
CTC Moderator: 

for those of you awaiting the live stream, we're experiencing technical issues with the camera feed. we're working on it

Friday June 13, 2014 09:03 CTC Moderator
09:01
CTC Moderator: 

We will be taking questions and contributions to the debate, please use the hashtag #CTCdebate to ensure it is seen by our moderators.

Friday June 13, 2014 09:01 CTC Moderator
09:01
CTC Moderator: 

There are several types of contributors to today’s event, those in the room with us including the panellists, there are people watching the debate via our live stream, and those following via social media feeds through Coveritlive.

Friday June 13, 2014 09:01 CTC Moderator
09:01
CTC Moderator: 

Good morning everyone and thank you all for taking part in today’s debate.

Friday June 13, 2014 09:01 CTC Moderator
11:10
Do you feel judges show more lenience toward drivers who endanger cyclists
Yes

 ( 0% )

No

 ( 0% )

I don't know

 ( 0% )


Thursday June 12, 2014 11:10 
11:04
Which "life event" is more probable? (1 PTS)
having twinsCorrect Answer
receiving a lifetime ban


Wednesday June 11, 2014 11:04 
15:26
Which change in sentencing do you feel is most appropriate?
Longer prison time

 ( 13% )

Longer driving bans

 ( 87% )

Higher average fines

 ( 0% )


Tuesday June 10, 2014 15:26 
15:29
should driving bans be for a minimum of one year?
yes

 ( 0% )

no

 ( 0% )


Wednesday June 4, 2014 15:29 
 
 

Share this article

Archive

  • Patron: Her Majesty The Queen
  • President: Jon Snow
  • Chief Executive: Paul Tuohy
  • Cyclists' Touring Club (CTC): A company limited by guarantee, registered in England no.25185. Registered as a charity in England and Wales No 1147607 and in Scotland No SC042541

 

Terms and Conditions