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Re: Another cyclist death: left-turning lorry

CTC Forum - On the road - 26 February 2015 - 5:17pm
mjr wrote:beardy wrote:As a driver I can cope with watching my front, my back and my right hand side but I have not managed to watch everywhere successfully, the left side is traditionally the one that you feel safe about. It is after all against the highway code to overtake on that side.
Please reread it:
Rule 163 wrote:stay in your lane if traffic is moving slowly in queues. If the queue on your right is moving more slowly than you are, you may pass on the left




My comment was about undertaking within the same lane, I have repeatedly said it could be different with separate lanes. Your quote from the highway code is about traffic in separate lanes.

So please cut out the condescending "Please reread it" comments.

Re: Another cyclist death: left-turning lorry

CTC Forum - On the road - 26 February 2015 - 5:08pm
I think you're missing an important one - design and operation of large vehicles in public places

Re: Orange / Vaucluse / Luberon - ideas?

CTC Forum - Touring & Expedition - 26 February 2015 - 5:01pm
Interested in the hotel Audax, would that be Le Mas de la Lause? Just looked up on Trip Advisor and it sounds good.
I went on Chris Ellisons CTC tour which is east of Orange,(highly recommended and still going), it is based in Buis de Barronnies and all round that area is memorable, very good day rides from there.

Re: Cyclists are treated as if they are staionary.

CTC Forum - On the road - 26 February 2015 - 4:47pm
And the worst ones are those with rear wheel steering. Had a close shave with one of these years ago so now i start braking as soon as the cab is past me if i get overtaken by one.

Re: Another cyclist death: left-turning lorry

CTC Forum - On the road - 26 February 2015 - 4:47pm
I'm leaving this thread now. I think it has served its purpose of allowing us to air our views on this terrible event. Thank you to everyone who has exchanged views with me. As a final post I will list in no particular order a few areas that I think need looking at to make things safer for cyclists at busy road junctions.

1) Infrastructure for cyclists on the road
2) Alternatives to being on the road (where practicable)
3) Careful driving
4) Careful cycling

I think anyone hoping to produce long term improvements must look at all those headings.

Bye

Re: Another cyclist death: left-turning lorry

CTC Forum - On the road - 26 February 2015 - 4:44pm
beardy wrote:As a driver I can cope with watching my front, my back and my right hand side but I have not managed to watch everywhere successfully, the left side is traditionally the one that you feel safe about. It is after all against the highway code to overtake on that side.
Please reread it:
Rule 163 wrote:stay in your lane if traffic is moving slowly in queues. If the queue on your right is moving more slowly than you are, you may pass on the left

There's also the not so small matter of scofflaws.
I am carrying on from XAPBob's starting point of analysing the problem and possible solutions and thinking through them, which, I understand, is not quite in line with the thinking of those who have already decided the best answer and are just trying to convince others who have already decided on a contradictory best answer.
Well, I think the best answer is to change the awful road layout at Bressenden Place and take steps to ensure it is never replicated again. That doesn't contradict the overtaking law change idea, but independently of road layouts, I think outlawing left-side overtakes would probably be a net harm.

danhopgood's link looks like it concerns liability rather than traffic offences but it's still interesting.

Re: Pinch points.

CTC Forum - On the road - 26 February 2015 - 4:41pm
beardy wrote:I suppose it would be a complete waste of time to point out Highway code rule 153 which states they should not be overtaking in a traffic calming area. I am sure that even the Police will say well "it was only a cycle".

http://www.highwaycode.info/rule/153
Does the pinch point count as traffic calming? It doesn't restrict the flow to a single lane so doesn't 'look' like the rule might apply... I'm just guessing here.

Re: Pinch points.

CTC Forum - On the road - 26 February 2015 - 4:35pm
I suppose it would be a complete waste of time to point out Highway code rule 153 which states they should not be overtaking in a traffic calming area. I am sure that even the Police will say well "it was only a cycle".

http://www.highwaycode.info/rule/153

Re: Pinch points.

CTC Forum - On the road - 26 February 2015 - 4:23pm
gaz wrote:Call for more comprehensive traffic calming measures, e.g.Ringlestone.

In the meantime carry on with what you are already doing.I've never seen traffic calming like that. It no doubt works, but it looks like it's on a gradient to me. If so and you are a slow cyclist, I'm sure there might be a tailback of slow moving motor vehicles and no doubt cursing drivers or even bus passengers. Interested to know what happens in practice.
In Forest Row some of the pedestrian crossings are on humps http://goo.gl/maps/EDjkf. These do not seem a problem to cycle over, but give quite a jolt to cars travelling more than 25mph.

Re: Another cyclist death: left-turning lorry

CTC Forum - On the road - 26 February 2015 - 3:56pm
That would be half the numbers of deaths.

As a driver I can cope with watching my front, my back and my right hand side but I have not managed to watch everywhere successfully, the left side is traditionally the one that you feel safe about. It is after all against the highway code to overtake on that side.
If vehicles are only supposed to pass on the outside it makes a HGV driver's job more manageable.

I am carrying on from XAPBob's starting point of analysing the problem and possible solutions and thinking through them, which, I understand, is not quite in line with the thinking of those who have already decided the best answer and are just trying to convince others who have already decided on a contradictory best answer.

Re: Another cyclist death: left-turning lorry

CTC Forum - On the road - 26 February 2015 - 3:49pm
beardy wrote:Filtering could be continued either in marked, wide lanes which are clearly separate lanes or on the outside as is preferred by many here.
And so someone would die making the right turn out of Bressenden Place instead of the left turn... then what?

Re: Orange / Vaucluse / Luberon - ideas?

CTC Forum - Touring & Expedition - 26 February 2015 - 3:45pm
^^^Liked your blog.

Maybe a bit far from Orange, the Gorges du Tarn and the Gorges de la Jonte are spectacular. There are vultures on the cliffs over the Jonte: if you swap the bike for boots one afternoon you can climb up the cliff paths and see them flying past about 30 feet away.

Other pleasant places: I'm fond of Carpentras, and there's a good hotel at Le Barroux. We stayed there in cherry season first time we did the Ventoux, and on our evening stroll found that there were cherry trees growing by the roadside free for anyone to help themselves from. The hotel was in a "mas provençal" (think "maison") with metre-thick walls, wonderfully cool after a day's cycling. The owners were from London but the food was 100% local.

If you're into junk/antique shops, Isle-sur-la-Sorgue is good for an evening stroll.

Re: Shane goes lightweight :)

CTC Forum - Touring & Expedition - 26 February 2015 - 3:12pm
I think there's a huge difference in 'touring' and what's come to be known as 'expedition' touring and different yet again to what's now known as 'bikepacking'
One is light ,one medium and one heavy

Re: Another cyclist death: left-turning lorry

CTC Forum - On the road - 26 February 2015 - 3:03pm
I can't see how it can possibly help to make undertaking illegal. All that will do is make cyclists into outlaws. It is a maneouver that many people believe is one of the main advantages to cycling in traffic. And it currently is the only legal way to cross advanced stop lines.

Well they made using a hand held phone while driving illegal and speeding is illegal too.
On the other hand some people do obey a law when it is made.

Filtering could be continued either in marked, wide lanes which are clearly separate lanes or on the outside as is preferred by many here.

The advanced stop lines could be exempted, repainted or entered from any position, as it is a good many of them are painted without any entry point at all and this doesnt affect their use at all.

Re: Weight distribution.

CTC Forum - Touring & Expedition - 26 February 2015 - 3:00pm
I prefer the handling with a reasonable proportion of the weight on the front. I usually end up with about a 40/60 front/rear split, but that's largely dictated by the relative pannier size.
Traditionally, French cycletourists put most of their gear on the front, but their bikes are designed with front-loading in mind.

If you aren't used to loaded touring, and you intend to take a larger share of the load, take more than your share of communal kit (i.e tent/stove/fuel/tools) rather than any of Mrs Raider's personal stuff.
Inexperienced tourists can do things like take full size bottles of shampoo, separate conditioner, deodorant, shaving foam etc rather than just a bar of soap, or soap and shampoo decanted into a little bottle. Having to carry the excess teaches you not to take it next time.

Re: Pushing a bike on a footpath.

CTC Forum - On the road - 26 February 2015 - 2:59pm
+1. There is no black and white here and if someone wanted to pursue this sort of dispute there would be no shortage of professional fee collectors willing to argue that the line ought to be drawn at a particular shade of grey.

The general point here is that the law surrounding trespass and rights and rights of way is ancient and obscure. The trespasses involved are also often very trivial and thus unlikely to be escalated to a level where they bring about a binding legal precedent. For all the "trespassers will be prosecuted" signs it is not normally a criminal offence and passengers have never been commonly sued for damages due to simple trespass. These are trifling matters and the law is not concerned with trifles.

Opinions differ as to whether or not it is a trespass to push or carry a bike along a footpath. Regardless, I am quite confident that it is sufficiently abnormal to de-rail any attempt to claim a right to cycle based upon that usage by cyclists. We're unlikely to get a definitive answer anytime soon. If the OP has now established the important matter that there is no legal prohibition of cycling, they can probably go ahead and do whatever they feel is best and dismiss the issue of whether pushing a bike is a trespass as a technicality only of interest to rights of way bores

Re: Another cyclist death: left-turning lorry

CTC Forum - On the road - 26 February 2015 - 2:54pm
I can't see how it can possibly help to make undertaking illegal. All that will do is make cyclists into outlaws. It is a maneouver that many people believe is one of the main advantages to cycling in traffic. And it currently is the only legal way to cross advanced stop lines.

I also cannot accept so easily things like space limitations and 'old' streets. London is netiher the most space-limited nor highest population density city in Europe.

If continental cities like Amsterdam with its narrow, medieval streets, and canal systems can create cycle-firendly space; if Paris with the highest population density in Europe can create cycle friendly space, then so can London. The investment required to do so has to be considered as cost preventive measures. Tragedies like the one in this thread cost taxpayers huge amounts of money, even without considering the loss to society and the family of the deceased.

Old, narrow streets are more suited to bicycle traffic than motor traffic.

I expect it is unrealistic to expect civil planners, highwaymen, or politicians in the UK to recognise that, but until they do, we will have discussions like this.

Re: Cyclists are treated as if they are staionary.

CTC Forum - On the road - 26 February 2015 - 2:50pm
I guess it is hard to judge wind and it's affects on a cyclist your are hoping to overtake. Wind does affect cyclists a lot more than motorists as you all know but it is funny how when we are in the car it is not taken into account. I suspect because at wind speeds where it does start to affect the cyclist you can not feel or hear it in the car. Plus you rarely know the direction of the wind. I admit now that as a motorist I do the exact same sorts of manoevres that I curse others for when I am cycling. I know this but I still drive that way, but trying to be better, and I also still curse drivers when I know that they too have tried to make the effort but had a case of mis-judgement just like I do as a driver.

We all make mistakes afterall and behave differently ewhen using different transport methods too.

Re: Cyclists are treated as if they are staionary.

CTC Forum - On the road - 26 February 2015 - 2:39pm
About an hour ago I was driving along a country road heading east at about 50mph. In the distance I saw the bright yellow top that indicates "CYCLIST" on the roads round here. I adjusted my speed downwards to avoid getting to him / her at a bend. As I got nearer and onto a straight I readied myself for a nice, clean overtake. Plenty of straight left. But there was a stiff westerly wind helping the cyclist which even I, seasoned cyclist, had failed to take into account. On the flat he was doing perhaps 30mph. And it took a good bit longer for me to get to him than I initially expected. I still had plenty of time, but I did have to retime my manoeuvre.
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