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Re: Grab Theft - handle bar kit

CTC Forum - On the road - 26 March 2015 - 12:09am
Freddie wrote:pete75 wrote:1. So only black people can suffer from racism?
2. I've no more reason to believe what he says than I have to doubt it. It's hearsay - it may have happened it may not have happened.
3. Going from hearsay to fact is hardly a slip of the tongue. Somebody told me so and so did that is hearsay. I saw so and so do that is fact. The difference is hardly a subtle one.
1. No, racism is between different racial groups. White people cannot be racist towards other white people. This is really simple stuff. I suppose people are confused about it because the word racism has been spread so far and thin, that incidents that it doesn't cover can now take advantage of the utility of a claim of racism.
2. That may be so, but I think you would change your tune quickly if approached by a "foreign speaking man" in a similar situation, you'd be gone like a shot. Hopefully you'd give the OP some credit then too. I think he deserves the benefit of the doubt. You do not think that, that is our fundamental disagreement.
3. I said it was a slip of the tongue. You hold this slip of the tongue up as good reason to doubt the OPs intentions, when I think it was just a slip of the tongue.
1. So you know the person who allegedly told him this tale was white do you? We know neither the race of his informant nor of the alleged offender. Anyhow your definition of racism is rather old fashioned. The definition of a racist incident accepted by the CPS is '˜... any incident which is perceived to be racist by the victim or any other person."'
and by the United Nations as 'the term "racial discrimination" shall mean any distinction, exclusion, restriction, or preference based on race, colour, descent, or national or ethnic origin'.
2. There you are wrong you neither know me nor how I react in any given situation. We are both entitled to hold whatever views we like of what's said by the OP. As I said I know not whether he speaks truthfully or falsely and he certainly doesn't know the same for his original informant.
3. Just because you claim it to be slip of the tongue doesn't make it so.

Re: Grab Theft - handle bar kit

CTC Forum - On the road - 25 March 2015 - 11:45pm
pete75 wrote:1. So only black people can suffer from racism?
2. I've no more reason to believe what he says than I have to doubt it. It's hearsay - it may have happened it may not have happened.
3. Going from hearsay to fact is hardly a slip of the tongue. Somebody told me so and so did that is hearsay. I saw so and so do that is fact. The difference is hardly a subtle one.
1. No, racism is between different racial groups. White people cannot be racist towards other white people. This is really simple stuff. I suppose people are confused about it because the word racism has been spread so far and thin, that incidents that it doesn't cover can now take advantage of the utility of a claim of racism.
2. That may be so, but I think you would change your tune quickly if approached by a "foreign speaking man" in a similar situation, you'd be gone like a shot. Hopefully you'd give the OP some credit then too. I think he deserves the benefit of the doubt. You do not think that, that is our fundamental disagreement.
3. I said it was a slip of the tongue. You hold this slip of the tongue up as good reason to doubt the OPs intentions, when I think it was just a slip of the tongue.

Re: Grab Theft - handle bar kit

CTC Forum - On the road - 25 March 2015 - 11:39pm
Everyone joining this forum is entitled to launch in with their first post by stating a point of view, of course, but I'd strongly advise the OP in this thread to use a bit of diplomacy. It's seen as a matter of common courtesy not to be too controversial right from the start. And I'm afraid the phrase "foreign speaking man" does have an air of controversy about it, as the development of this rather unpleasant thread has borne out.

I'm reminded of my first post here, when I re-joined this forum a few years ago after a lengthy break from forumming. In it I described a crash I'd just had, in which I was knocked off by a car turning right across my path. That incident was indeed my reason for joining in the first place. Now, I could have included, with absolute truthfulness, the little detail that the car driver was of south Asian appearance, name and accent, and was dressed in traditional Muslim attire. I left out that detail because it was totally irrelevant to the case - and would have merely served to stoke up controversy and accusations of racism! I only mention the fact now, over two years later, because it is pertinent to the discussion pervading this thread, and for no other reason. I think the OP should take heed.

Racial and other prejudice has no place on this forum, and we should take care not to arouse suspicions of harbouring those prejudices, even when we post with complete sincerity.

Re: Grab Theft - handle bar kit

CTC Forum - On the road - 25 March 2015 - 11:37pm
honesty wrote:3 things were used to describe the assailant:
1. Young.
2. Male.
3. Foreign.

Each plays to either conscious or unconscious stereotypes we have. A person will react to these stereotypes in specific ways. Stating these descriptors can reinforce the linkages between those stereotypes and certain types of behaviour. All young people are up to no good, cyclists jump red lights, footballers are wimps, farmers are backwards, and so on. Race can be a particularly emotive one as we are trained that racism is bad whilst being fed white superiority at a societal level (just what tv and see who is cast as the drug dealer and who as the hero for example). The other thing is we are so deeply drilled into accepting division by age or sex that race is seen here as the only defining characteristic, which is interesting in and of itself.

Either way, none of the descriptive points are actually relevant. We cant identify the attacker from them and almost certainly don't know the victim so in reality it's completely unnecessary information.I'm sorry, but so what. I fit two out of three of those descriptors and I don't feel in the slightest bit maligned for it. It is potentially useful information. In the aftermath of a criminal event, the victim is hardly likely to remember if the perpetrator was 5'9" or 5'11", but he will remember their age, sex, potential accent and possibly hair colour and clothing.

This deep analysis you have subjected the OPs post to does not stop you from utilising that information if you were in a similar situation and approached by someone pointing at the back of your bike using a supposedly eastern European language/accent. You would be out of there like a shot, as would everyone here. You wouldn't care a jot about perpetuating stereotypes and all that other stuff in your post, you would care only for your Garmin. The information would be more than detailed enough faced with a situation like that.

honesty wrote:Having said all that, I had not previously thought about my Garmin safety whilst stopped so the nub of the story is still relevant (though I am far less likely to come across circumstances where this could happen out here in the sticks). So you admit the post does have utility, but you would just have liked the OP to say a person, whose sex, age and accent is irrelevant and will not be divulged, apparently came up to someone and snatched their Garmin. That is about all that would be left of the post once you have removed these details. Should we not remove the location too, we don't want to malign the non-criminals of a particular area. Can't you see what this would do to the original post, all its utility would be removed.

Re: Grab Theft - handle bar kit

CTC Forum - On the road - 25 March 2015 - 11:34pm
Freddie wrote:pete75 wrote:1. I didn't say it was racist. Though rereading it I think the subtlety of the racism has escaped you.
2. He's defending his description of an incident which he doesn't know happened. All he has to go on is hearsay.
3. It's not his first post. In any case he's been posting here as recently as Tuesday this week, on this topic of course. It's gathering legs now though. In his first post it's somebody told him but in his last post it's gone from hearsay to fact - he says " I think it's clear to see that my intention was to pass on factual information "
4. As 3 it wasn't his very first post.
1. Subtle racism? I have to presume this eastern European gentleman was likely not black, so what you probably mean is xenophobia, still I don't see it. I don't go searching for these things, I think they are usually obvious when they are present, so maybe it is too subtle for me to gauge/or it is so subtle it doesn't exist, who can say? Occam's razor would probably be my answer
2. It may well be hearsay, but what reason do you have to doubt the OP or that of the person that informed him. It seems like sensible information cyclists would share. The forum doesn't seem like an untapped source of potential xenophobics to recruit, mostly seemingly filled with people of a left leaning persuasion, so why would he bother posting such a thing to be malicious, it makes no sense. I think he was just passing on potentially useful information he has heard and hopes it may help some others.
3. Well, it may well just be a slip of the tongue on his part. Are you always looking for nefarious intent in peoples posting, however subtle?

1. So only black people can suffer from racism?
2. I've no more reason to believe what he says than I have to doubt it. It's hearsay - it may have happened it may not have happened.
3. Going from hearsay to fact is hardly a slip of the tongue. Somebody told me so and so did that is hearsay. I saw so and so do that is fact. The difference is hardly a subtle one.

Re: Grab Theft - handle bar kit

CTC Forum - On the road - 25 March 2015 - 11:23pm
pete75 wrote:1. I didn't say it was racist. Though rereading it I think the subtlety of the racism has escaped you.
2. He's defending his description of an incident which he doesn't know happened. All he has to go on is hearsay.
3. It's not his first post. In any case he's been posting here as recently as Tuesday this week, on this topic of course. It's gathering legs now though. In his first post it's somebody told him but in his last post it's gone from hearsay to fact - he says " I think it's clear to see that my intention was to pass on factual information "
4. As 3 it wasn't his very first post.
1. Subtle racism? I have to presume this eastern European gentleman was likely not black, so what you probably mean is xenophobia, still I don't see it. I don't go searching for these things, I think they are usually obvious when they are present, so maybe it is too subtle for me to gauge/or it is so subtle it doesn't exist, who can say? Occam's razor would probably be my answer
2. It may well be hearsay, but what reason do you have to doubt the OP or that of the person that informed him. It seems like sensible information cyclists would share. The forum doesn't seem like an untapped source of potential xenophobics to recruit, mostly seemingly filled with people of a left leaning persuasion, so why would he bother posting such a thing to be malicious, it makes no sense. I think he was just passing on potentially useful information he has heard and hopes it may help some others.
3. Well, it may well just be a slip of the tongue on his part. Are you always looking for nefarious intent in peoples posting, however subtle?

Re: Grab Theft - handle bar kit

CTC Forum - On the road - 25 March 2015 - 11:12pm
3 things were used to describe the assailant:
1. Young.
2. Male.
3. Foreign.

Each plays to either conscious or unconscious stereotypes we have. A person will react to these stereotypes in specific ways. Stating these descriptors can reinforce the linkages between those stereotypes and certain types of behaviour. All young people are up to no good, cyclists jump red lights, footballers are wimps, farmers are backwards, and so on. Race can be a particularly emotive one as we are trained that racism is bad whilst being fed white superiority at a societal level (just what tv and see who is cast as the drug dealer and who as the hero for example). The other thing is we are so deeply drilled into accepting division by age or sex that race is seen here as the only defining characteristic, which is interesting in and of itself.

Either way, none of the descriptive points are actually relevant. We cant identify the attacker from them and almost certainly don't know the victim so in reality it's completely unnecessary information.

Having said all that, I had not previously thought about my Garmin safety whilst stopped so the nub of the story is still relevant (though I am far less likely to come across circumstances where this could happen out here in the sticks).

Re: Grab Theft - handle bar kit

CTC Forum - On the road - 25 March 2015 - 10:59pm
Weimarunner wrote:pete75 wrote:Clearly innocent? Maybe it was, maybe it wasn't. He joined just a couple of days before he made the post and of his 12 postings here 8 have been on this topic. Yes people may well have suspicion as to his motive.

1. The post is not racist - read it.
2. He's defending / explaining his post - it's no fun being falsely accused.
3. I can't blame him for not wanting to contribute elsewhere on this forum after the response to this his first post.

1. I didn't say it was racist. Though rereading it I think the subtlety of the racism has escaped you.
2. He's defending his description of an incident which he doesn't know happened. All he has to go on is hearsay.
3. It's not his first post. In any case he's been posting here as recently as Tuesday this week, on this topic of course. It's gathering legs now though. In his first post it's somebody told him but in his last post it's gone from hearsay to fact - he says " I think it's clear to see that my intention was to pass on factual information "
4. As 3 it wasn't his very first post.

Re: Grab Theft - handle bar kit

CTC Forum - On the road - 25 March 2015 - 10:51pm
4. His very first post was made as a service/warning to fellow cyclists, only to have all kinds of unwarranted allegations thrown in his face.

Re: Grab Theft - handle bar kit

CTC Forum - On the road - 25 March 2015 - 10:40pm
pete75 wrote:Clearly innocent? Maybe it was, maybe it wasn't. He joined just a couple of days before he made the post and of his 12 postings here 8 have been on this topic. Yes people may well have suspicion as to his motive.

1. The post is not racist - read it.
2. He's defending / explaining his post - it's no fun being falsely accused.
3. I can't blame him for not wanting to contribute elsewhere on this forum after the response to this his first post.

Re: Grab Theft - handle bar kit

CTC Forum - On the road - 25 March 2015 - 10:34pm
Si wrote:Freddie , I think that trying to discuss anything with you may be a lost cause now.Well, this is also how I have felt with your input for some time, you cannot argue or you at least refuse to do so, you just make patently false allegations (which is why you couldn't directly quote where I had said all member of x group were criminals....because no such thing was said, it remains a figment of your imagination). Nonetheless, I wasn't going to let the innocent comment and character of the OP be slurred by all sorts of trouble makers and offence seekers. If it doesn't matter to you that this was happening, as you have some kind of ideological disagreement with what the OP was saying, then shame on you. You are a moderator, if you are not impartial enough to moderate, then for the good of the forum, find someone else to do so.
Si wrote:You complain that other people can't hold a reasoned argument yet you are the one who responds by telling people that they talk "drivel", by being sarcastic and then complaining when others do the same, of making spurious complaints about the thought police just because someone tries to put forward a different opinion to you, of telling people who you have never met how they behave when they are out on their bikes and so on. And then you get upset because I suggest that the manor of your input to this thread is questionable.It seems many posters on this thread cannot hold a reasoned argument, yourself included, but then many people cannot in general, so I don't why this place should be different. PH did talk drivel, I make no apology for attacking his words (not his character or intentions, Si, something perhaps you could take note of).

Yes, I do get upset when you MAKE UP things which I have not said as an intentional slur on my character, that is not an uncommon response in general. I deserve an apology, but I will not hold my breath. I leave it to others to see what I have written and how you have responded and make their own judgement about it.

You are a moderator, you should hold yourself to a higher standard.

Si wrote:I'm happy to have a friendly discussion but as you are clearly getting very upset by this thread (as evidenced by the above) I shall depart hence and save you further anguish. No doubt you will reply by responding to every sentence I write individually and working in some inference that I'm obviously wrong and a bad person because I'm a moderator (that one always gets in there eventually despite the thread receiving no moderation and no one raising a report for it to be so). No, you are happy to distort what I am saying to paint me as a bigot, then write a reply like this in a pretence of being the bigger man. Yes, I reply to what you ACTUALLY SAY, hence my quotations, not what I FELT you have said. This is argument 101.

I don't think you are a bad person, I don't much appreciate your actions here though. They are not befitting of a moderator and I can say without doubt you are a poor moderator. If anyone wishes to check the exchange between us, as an impartial observer would likely find the same.

Re: Grab Theft - handle bar kit

CTC Forum - On the road - 25 March 2015 - 10:32pm
Weimarunner wrote:Can I remind people this is what was posted -
a young foreign speaking man on foot pointed out something to the rear of the bike and whilst distracted another man snatched his garmin!
Come on people, really! How can this be considered racist? The op hasn't even guessed at the perpetrators race!
The original post was clearly innocent. Pity people have felt the need to judge this member or be suspicious of his motive. Embarrassing!

Clearly innocent? Maybe it was, maybe it wasn't. He joined just a couple of days before he made the post and of his 12 postings here 8 have been on this topic. Yes people may well have suspicion as to his motive.

Re: Tour of Brittany

CTC Forum - Touring & Expedition - 25 March 2015 - 10:23pm
bretonbikes wrote:simonineaston wrote:OK, BB et al, you've succeeded in persuading me! I'm clicking on my Leave Booking app as we speak!!

If you regret it you can sue;-)

I think you'll have a great time. Brittany is fantastic place for cycling and if you do get 3 days in a row of rain there are always the cheap chain hotels or if you speak a little French go for a chambre d'hôtes for an experience of real Breton hospitality. I have cycled out there at all times of the year and never found the wind to be a problem. You'll be fine.
Julia

Re: GPS or maps

CTC Forum - Touring & Expedition - 25 March 2015 - 9:56pm
Thank you for all the comments and recommendations. I think that the Etrex 30 looks to be the choice for our trips.
Any recommendations for a mount (preferably a stem mount)?
Thanks

Re: Anyone not been hit by a car

CTC Forum - On the road - 25 March 2015 - 9:54pm
horizon wrote:He must have been on his way back from the BBC then.
Nah twasn't JC unless he's lost twenty years & had lots of tats up his arms. But the thought did cross my mind afterwards that he might be missing his top gear fix.
Imagine there will be a few petrolheads looking for someone to blame other than their beloved Messiah in the next few days.

Re: Grab Theft - handle bar kit

CTC Forum - On the road - 25 March 2015 - 9:29pm
Can I remind people this is what was posted -
a young foreign speaking man on foot pointed out something to the rear of the bike and whilst distracted another man snatched his garmin!
Come on people, really! How can this be considered racist? The op hasn't even guessed at the perpetrators race!
The original post was clearly innocent. Pity people have felt the need to judge this member or be suspicious of his motive. Embarrassing!

Re: so when do the shorts come out?

CTC Forum - On the road - 25 March 2015 - 9:13pm
I'm with the Belgians (my knees ache if they are cold)

  • Longs (Roubaix type material - usually "Team Aldi") unless the temperature is likely to be well into double figures. I'll add extra layers underneath if the temp is going south of freezing
  • 3/4s (again Roubaix) if I will be mostly in low to mid teen temps.
  • from mid teens shorts with knee warmers which I will remove as the temperature gets to the top end of the teens (& put back on if it drops again).
You can tell me in a group of cyclists - I will usually be the last bloke with my knees out but, often with short sleeves, when others are in shorts with long sleeves.

Rick.

Re: Handlebar bag views and costs

CTC Forum - Touring & Expedition - 25 March 2015 - 8:57pm
http://www.planetx.co.uk/i/q/BAARFRB/ar ... ounted-bag


Just received the above, seems pretty good for the money. The bracket seems fairly solid, comes with a small map case.

It seems to be the same as http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/d/B005D4CF6K which gets good reviews.

I doubt it's very waterproof and it's a bit on the small side but it clears my STI gear cables and I can't complain for the price.

Re: so when do the shorts come out?

CTC Forum - On the road - 25 March 2015 - 8:53pm
CliveyT wrote:Audax67 wrote:What mig noticed I've seen here too - there always seems to be one ostensibly-tough guy out in shorts in temperatures approaching zero. Dunno what those freezing purple-white-mottled legs are supposed to prove: tendinitis spares nobody.

That would be me-having worked in Finland I can tell you this country doesn't get cold. -10 I might consider for longs, but hardly seems worth it for commuting

It depends. If you spent a day working in a fen field in January, temperature hovering around freezing with all the humidity and a bitter East wind off the North Sea you wouldn't say it doesn't get cold here. Just breathing the damp winter fenland air really saps heat from your body.

If, as many claim, you lose half your body heat through your head presumably you'd be as warm riding bollock naked in a balaclava as wearing clothes but no hat and shorts should be ok in any weather provided you wear a hat.

Re: so when do the shorts come out?

CTC Forum - On the road - 25 March 2015 - 8:47pm
Mick F wrote:Still FAR too cold here.
I'm wearing sandals now instead of shoes in "normal" clothes, but shorts not until the weather is warm.

Although the sun is nice and warm, the wind is quite cold. I rode out yesterday and wished I'd worn gloves, so shorts wearing is a long way off yet.

Temp gets to about 9 or 10degC or perhaps 12degC ............... and with a damned chilly wind.

Full gloves or fingerless?

I'm still wearing full length gloves in the morning, fingers don't stay too warm, since they do no work...

Legs are a major source of heat, and get a lot of blood flow from the other major heat centres, so they stay warm much more easily than fingers...
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