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Re: Give way to pavement cyclist when turning into side road

CTC Forum - On the road - 15 November 2014 - 10:48am
If something like this resulted in serious injury or even death and a claim for compo, who knows what the courts would decide? If we knew, there'd be no need for civil courts and fancy lawyers.

It seems to me that a road user, be they driving a 40 tonne juggernaut or on foot, has above all, a duty to try to prevent collisions. Relying on some imagined right rather than taking avoiding action surely cannot be justified in any moral sense. Avoiding collisions has the benefit that benefit that nobody gets hurt and beyond that, the lawyers make no money.

Re: Waterproof gloves that are NOT waterproof.

CTC Forum - On the road - 15 November 2014 - 10:34am
I always pull my sleeves over the top of my gloves. It stops water dribbling into them and feels more comfortable and warmer.

Re: The Calm Before The Storm

CTC Forum - On the road - 15 November 2014 - 10:30am
661-Pete wrote:Bonefishblues wrote:It might be of interest to take a look at the biker's Youtube channel - BikersPOV.

Links from the original Youtube page.
Yep. Laced throughout with plenty more of the 'Anglo-Saxon'. I suppose we all lapse now and again, but to this extent? Perhaps I should revise my previous post... I doubt if 'Seikenbiker' will be back...

TBH you live a very sheltered life if you think his AS is unusual,that level of swearing is every day usage a for good percentage of the general public.
As for his riding style,it's fairly cautious,with one or two completely risky manoeuvres,but compared to some other cyclists and m/cyclists his risk levels are small.
Some of the manoeuvres by other road users in the videos I find extremely stupid and very alarming.
What always amazes me, from my own experience and watching the videos,are the levels of risk people are prepared to take to save a few seconds.

Re: Waterproof gloves that are NOT waterproof.

CTC Forum - On the road - 15 November 2014 - 10:26am
As a general point about winter gloves, It usually pays to look at gloves aimed at the hillwalking/climbing market from a specialist retailer rather than those specifically sold as cycling gloves. The range is much wider, and materials and construction often better; but there's little difference in the actual requirements, so there's little to be gained in restricting yourself to a specific 'cycling' glove. And I endorse the point others have made about no wearable glove being truly waterproof, as there's no realistically practical way to seal the cuffs.

Re: ROSE BIKE'S UK . .

CTC Forum - Touring & Expedition - 15 November 2014 - 10:20am
neil ry wrote:wasn't goin to get wheels built yet due to budget,
been quoted by local wheel builder 700c mavic rims, deore hubs, aci spokes,32 hole's £150 seems reasonable

For 2 wheels I hope?

Re: The Calm Before The Storm

CTC Forum - On the road - 15 November 2014 - 10:01am
Si wrote:SeikenBiker wrote:However what do you think should be done? Just letting her on her way thinking she made the right thing and carry on feeling like she is the citizen of the year? Do you think THAT will help other vulnerable road users? Maybe if she sees herself on YT and reads some of the comments she will think twice (and people like her who will watch it) before she decides to pull that off on another vulnerable road user? She will not change her mind (no matter what) but maybe she will be a little more worried about the consequences.
That is how I think about it.

Perhaps if one were to stop and talk calmly to her (yes, I know that this is easier on a proper bike than on a motor bike ) one may have more chance of converting her? Just like you were talking calmly throughout the start of the video - ask her in a polite manor what she hoped to gain from causing you hassle and how she thought you were harming her in any way. You may well get a load of abuse back but that will just demonstrate that she realises that she is in an untenable position and she will, hopefully, reflect on the error of her ways later. Like others, I fear that no matter how justified you might be in hurling abuse at her, the outcome is likely to be that it just reinforces her own perceptions of motorcyclists. Having said that, I realise that in the heat of the moment it can be difficult to stay calm, we've all been there, and we've all been driven to venting our feelings most forcefully.
I'd suggest, based on what he chooses to publish on his Youtube Channel that the chances of that approach being taken are being rather low.

Re: The Calm Before The Storm

CTC Forum - On the road - 15 November 2014 - 9:49am
SeikenBiker wrote:However what do you think should be done? Just letting her on her way thinking she made the right thing and carry on feeling like she is the citizen of the year? Do you think THAT will help other vulnerable road users? Maybe if she sees herself on YT and reads some of the comments she will think twice (and people like her who will watch it) before she decides to pull that off on another vulnerable road user? She will not change her mind (no matter what) but maybe she will be a little more worried about the consequences.
That is how I think about it.

Perhaps if one were to stop and talk calmly to her (yes, I know that this is easier on a proper bike than on a motor bike ) one may have more chance of converting her? Just like you were talking calmly throughout the start of the video - ask her in a polite manor what she hoped to gain from causing you hassle and how she thought you were harming her in any way. You may well get a load of abuse back but that will just demonstrate that she realises that she is in an untenable position and she will, hopefully, reflect on the error of her ways later. Like others, I fear that no matter how justified you might be in hurling abuse at her, the outcome is likely to be that it just reinforces her own perceptions of motorcyclists. Having said that, I realise that in the heat of the moment it can be difficult to stay calm, we've all been there, and we've all been driven to venting our feelings most forcefully.

Re: Give way to pavement cyclist when turning into side road

CTC Forum - On the road - 15 November 2014 - 1:35am
Hi,
But common sense prevails.

I dont see anywhere where it it says that a pedestrian can wonder about willy nilly on the highway.
A pedestrian has a duty to look and also listen before crossing any road........just like a railway crossing.
And at junctions that means looking behind them.
So it says that vehicles should take care of pedestrians crossing at junctions with their back to the traffic.
And if they do cross blind then you will have to wait for them.
But in all cases unless there is a pedestrian crossing or light controled crossing the pedestrian is negligent if they do not look and listen.
When I cross the road I make all attempts to get to the other pavement before the vehicle is apon me.

You know that many pedestrians dont do this with good effect because you are constantly having to brake.

So if you saw a vehicle comming along the road you would time it to cross before it gets to you or wait for it to pass, junctions are the same and the highway code also says for pedestrians to predict that a vehicle if turning etc, to be wary where it will be when they cross.

The highway code says a vehicle does have to give way to pedestrians if they are already crossing, but they should cross safely at all cost, even allowing for road conditions so the car can stop safely

Yes a pedestrian is the lowest when it ventures onto the road unless the already stated conditions apply.
And cyclist that use pavements are too.

Because what I think you are not saying is that road users watch pedestrians and predict when they will cross so they can stop for them.
Road users are watching the road and only when the pedestrian is on the road does the attention switch to include them.

If a vehicle is stationary then a pedestrian could cross and take priority, but if it moves first the pedestrian should wait.

Of course this is not reality as we know it, if it was then a lot of deaths / injures to pedestrians could be avoided (20%) at or near junctions (IIRC).

We the road user have to be decisive because we know that pedestrians sometimes play russian roulette...........

Re: ROSE BIKE'S UK . .

CTC Forum - Touring & Expedition - 14 November 2014 - 11:17pm
I bought a Team Xeon CGF from them, great bike and hassle free deal.

They have a free phone number to talk to them, they all speak English too.

Only issue I've had is with the parcelfarce side of it, a package spent 4 days enjoying the Essex countryside much to my annoyance!

Re: Give way to pavement cyclist when turning into side road

CTC Forum - On the road - 14 November 2014 - 11:07pm
I think that guidance is for pedestrians actually crossing roads rather than walking along them. It separately refers to crossing at junctions in the next rule:
8. At a junction. When crossing the road, look out for traffic turning into the road, especially from behind you. If you have started crossing and traffic wants to turn into the road, you have priority and they should give way (see Rule 170).

This is what I meant before about the HC being unclear. It is very similar to the section you quoted earlier about crossing roads but curiously omits any mention of letting traffic pass. All it says is to look round for turning traffic which we can all agree is sensible. It clearly states that pedestrians have priority once they have started to cross the junction but not whether they ought to give way to vehicles about to turn. As I said above priority cannot be expected and nor would it be responsible to step in front of a vehicle in a dangerous manner, but it is far from clear to me that pedestrians cannot legitimately start to cross despite the fact that a vehicle may be waiting to turn.

The wording of the above section is not a million miles away from the section on Zebra Crossings:
19. Zebra crossings. Give traffic plenty of time to see you and to stop before you start to cross. Vehicles will need more time when the road is slippery. Wait until traffic has stopped from both directions or the road is clear before crossing. Remember that traffic does not have to stop until someone has moved onto the crossing. Keep looking both ways, and listening, in case a driver or rider has not seen you and attempts to overtake a vehicle that has stopped.

I don't see any reason for thinking that pedestrians are a special lowly category of road user to whom the normal rules do not apply. Or is it that we are attributing some significance to the fact that there is a pavement there#? Do we think that pavement kerbs are effectively give way lines? What if the road didn't have pavements, would that change matters or would pedestrians still give way? Pavement cycle paths normally have give way lines where they do not have priority over the road which implies that they otherwise would have. As I noted earlier, pavement cycle paths can now have priority over side junctions. Are the lowly pedestrians elevated to our level at these places and able to take their priority or are they to remain subservient, give way and doff their caps to turning traffic?

It is far from clear

Re: The Calm Before The Storm

CTC Forum - On the road - 14 November 2014 - 10:54pm
Bonefishblues wrote:It might be of interest to take a look at the biker's Youtube channel - BikersPOV.

Links from the original Youtube page.
Yep. Laced throughout with plenty more of the 'Anglo-Saxon'. I suppose we all lapse now and again, but to this extent? Perhaps I should revise my previous post... I doubt if 'Seikenbiker' will be back...

Re: Give way to pavement cyclist when turning into side road

CTC Forum - On the road - 14 November 2014 - 10:42pm
Hi,
Would you put a foot on the road before looking
If cyclist on pavement had looked then they would have to give way to road users.

Where does it say that a pedestrian walking on to road has priority over traffic thats moving or waiting to move along the road

It does'nt, it says pedestrians should look before crossing to see its safe.

A pedestrian should also consider their actions should not force the road user to brake sharply

Its like road users pulling out of a junction in to the path of moving traffic, dangerous and inconsiderate.

A paper boy did that to me one morning, he said sorry as I just missed him (I was comming out of a junction with lights, I have priority, all others have a red) he came across in front of me along pavement hiden by houses, if I had hit him what would his defence be, If I was a car he could probably be dead.

If you had hit him and injured him what would his defence be, any crossing road is done pushing bike, unless there is a sign saying cycle path etc, then the crossing lights would be green for you red for him or vise versa. (Toucan)

Only a pedestrian crossing works in favour of the pedestrian.
https://www.gov.uk/rules-pedestrians-1- ... ad-7-to-17
"D. If traffic is coming, let it pass. Look all around again and listen. Do not cross until there is a safe gap in the traffic and you are certain that there is plenty of time. Remember, even if traffic is a long way off, it may be approaching very quickly."

police ask for help identifying cyclist, Denbigh/Trefnant

CTC Forum - On the road - 14 November 2014 - 10:23pm
A cyclist has been injured and police are asking for help with idnetification.
The collision happened at about 10:50 GMT on the B5428 Upper Denbigh Road, from Trefnant to Denbigh.

The woman, described as being aged between 30 and 50, was wearing a white Madison cycling top and a red and black specialised helmet. She was riding a Specialized Secteur black, white and red road bike.
North Wales Police said she was travelling in the direction from Denbigh towards Trefnant.
Ch Insp Darren Wareing said: "We are trying to establish any relatives or friends who may be able to assist in identifying the woman who was cycling alone."
The woman has been taken to hospital where her condition is described as serious.

Anyone with information is asked to call the Roads Policing Unit on 101.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-nort ... s-30058103

Re: Accident with London bus and cyclist - advice required

CTC Forum - On the road - 14 November 2014 - 9:44pm
Holy cow [I have stronger words in mind but they'd be moderated out].

The bike is 'only' metal and plastic, it's not important in the scheme of things. I hope your injuries mend well and I hope you manage to sleep at night. God knows I thought I'd met my fair share of psychos on London's roads (I commuted to Vauxhall for a decade and know those roads well) so I can only imagine how this would leave me shaking.

Yes, absolutely get solicitor's advice and see your GP.

Ask as many questions as you like here, people will try to help, but just be careful (as you have been) to avoid any identifying information which might undermine a future court case.

Good luck.

Re: Give way to pavement cyclist when turning into side road

CTC Forum - On the road - 14 November 2014 - 9:43pm
I would argue that one cyclist was already on the road and that the other was starting to use the road and whilst on the pavement they should have waited until it was clear before getting on to the road and cycling.
Though the road could be considered clear if the cyclist on the road had not bothered to indicate that they were turning.

Re: Give way to pavement cyclist when turning into side road

CTC Forum - On the road - 14 November 2014 - 9:21pm
snibgo wrote:A case could be made that one cyclist was following the line of the road, while another was turning off it. So the priority lies with the one following the line of the road.
Agreed, and if anybody were to take the opposite view - that the other cyclist was crossing the side road - then, again, traffic turning into the side road should give way to road users already on the road into which they are turning

Re: Help with choosing bike type and/or commute through Lond

CTC Forum - On the road - 14 November 2014 - 9:20pm
The most important part about reporting something is that if others have reported him, the police are much more likely to do something. If no one reports him, they won't ever do anything.

Re: Give way to pavement cyclist when turning into side road

CTC Forum - On the road - 14 November 2014 - 9:12pm
Bicycler wrote:It is unwise to ever rely on any road user obeying rules about priority, particularly one who is behaving illegally to begin with.
I entirely agree. And we have a duty not to collide with each other, whatever wrongs people might have done.

I would point out that, at the moment of possible impact, both cyclists were on the road, and both were cyclists. The fact that one might previously have been cycling where it wasn't allowed isn't relevant.

A case could be made that one cyclist was following the line of the road, while another was turning off it. So the priority lies with the one following the line of the road.

Re: Give way to pavement cyclist when turning into side road

CTC Forum - On the road - 14 November 2014 - 8:58pm
People argue as to the rights of pedestrians as the highway code does a good job of confusing the situation. Some taking the view that pedestrians should not start to cross if they can see a vehicle wanting to turn. Others view that they have priority over the turning traffic. Once they are crossing everybody is in agreement that the turning vehicle should give way to the pedestrian.

Had the pavement been an official shared use cycle path then there would probably have been white lines indicating that the cyclist ought to give way, though now it is possible for cycle paths to have priority over the turning traffic so this does depend on local circumstance. I don't think you will get a definitive answer about pavements where cycling is not permitted because obviously cyclists should not be cycling along them. If I had to hedge a bet I would say that the general rule applies that turning traffic should give way to traffic which is proceeding along a road.

More important than the wording of the law is the safety of yourself and others. It is unwise to ever rely on any road user obeying rules about priority, particularly one who is behaving illegally to begin with. When making a turn I always keep an eye out for any traffic which my manoeuver might conflict with. I would not start to turn into a road until I was sure that any person or cycle on the pavement had either cleared the junction or had seen me and stopped to allow me to turn
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