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Re: Using cycle paths

CTC Forum - On the road - 25 November 2014 - 12:53pm
We probably all have the same interests at heart. It is wrong to suggest a bias where people differ in opinion. I may be on a cycling forum but I spent a long time as a an active member of a walkers' group and the Open Spaces Society. It did make me aware of the difficulties faced by many people trying to access paths and what is fit for a 20 or 30 year old is not necessarily fit for somebody older, with restrictive movement, or with a dog. It was clear that was wrong. It wasn't by design but sheer inconsideration that these people were excluded. In recent years organisations have been trying to put this right.

The same applies to cycling. How this country hopes to promote utility cycling by making even cycle facilities inaccessible by utility cyclists I have no idea.

Our ancestors in the 17th century had no problem labelling the erection of gates or barriers across highways a "public nuisance". I can think of no more adequate description in the 21st.

Re: Using cycle paths

CTC Forum - On the road - 25 November 2014 - 12:46pm
ukdodger wrote:I seriously doubt that any barrier design that allowed cyclists to go through unhindered would also bar access to a motorcycle.
Agreed.

ukdodger wrote:They dont prevent you cycling on the path they only inconvenience you getting round them.
I have certainly encountered barriers that prevent me from cycling. Some not only prevent me from cycling, but require me to unload my bike to get it through.

Re: Using cycle paths

CTC Forum - On the road - 25 November 2014 - 12:44pm
Bicycler wrote:ukdodger wrote:I seriously doubt that any barrier design that allowed cyclists to go through unhindered would also bar access to a motorcycle.
So don't put barriers in then they are clearly unfit for use on a cycle path.

This trend for putting in barriers on cycle paths is inconsistent with the way we treat all other rights of way. Urban alleyways may be gated only if subject to a legal order which requires consultation and clear evidence of an existing anti-social behaviour problem on that path which cannot be solved in any other way. On a public footpath, new gates or stiles require permission which is only usually given if fencing is required for livestock. On a Public Bridleway obstructions pretty much the same applies to adding gates. Anything which prevents horses from using the route is simply not allowed. On Restricted Byways, Byways Open to All Traffic and normal public roads new barriers are never added.

So lets take them down and let every single user of these paths be subject to yobbos tearing past them at speed on scamblers then. I dont know the criteria they use to ascertain whether or not to install these things but I doubt anyone else here does either.

Re: Using cycle paths

CTC Forum - On the road - 25 November 2014 - 12:39pm
mjr wrote:ukdodger wrote:It seems truly odd I've never encountered motorcycles on any path with these barriers. What's even stranger is that it is apparently Ok for all users of these paths to be subjected to speeding scramblers (yes 'speeding'. It isnt the point to pootle along on these things and it wont be just scramblers. Have you thought about quad bikes too or any petrol vehicle capable of entry?) and the risk of injury they may cause to anyone else simply because they inconvenience us.
I'm still waiting for you to explain how any of the barriers above prevent access by scramblers or quad bikes. Small quad bikes can sail through bike-handlebar-height barriers because their handlebars are so much lower. Scramblers can also fit through, plus they can jump the low barriers.

But have you considered that their installation is only in places where petrol driven vehicles are a real problem? As I said someone must have done their homework. If it were carte blanche they'd be on all cycle paths.
The main reason they're not on all cycle paths is campaigning by CTC, Cyclenation and others that sometimes makes the fools who propose this junk to do their homework and discover that the barriers are worse than nothing.
What's surprised me in this thread is the total lack of public spiritedness among some cyclists. What's wrong for us apparently should not be allowed sums it up.
What's surprised me in this thread is the total lack of empathy or logic among certain crash-barrier fanatics. They must really hate cyclists.

Oh yes I really hate cyclists.

Re: Using cycle paths

CTC Forum - On the road - 25 November 2014 - 12:37pm
ukdodger wrote:I seriously doubt that any barrier design that allowed cyclists to go through unhindered would also bar access to a motorcycle.
So don't put barriers in then they are clearly unfit for use on a cycle path.

This trend for putting in barriers on cycle paths is inconsistent with the way we treat all other rights of way. Urban alleyways may be gated only if subject to a legal order which requires consultation and clear evidence of an existing anti-social behaviour problem on that path which cannot be solved in any other way. On a public footpath, new gates or stiles require permission which is only usually given if fencing is required for livestock. Gates are normally mandated instead of stiles in order to minimise access problems for path users. Best practice favours replacement of old gates and stiles with ones which allow use by a much wider proportion of path users such as the elderly and the disabled.. On a Public Bridleway obstructions pretty much the same applies to adding gates. Anything which prevents horses from using the route is simply not allowed. On Restricted Byways, Byways Open to All Traffic and normal public roads new barriers are never added.

Re: Using cycle paths

CTC Forum - On the road - 25 November 2014 - 12:31pm
ukdodger wrote:It seems truly odd I've never encountered motorcycles on any path with these barriers. What's even stranger is that it is apparently Ok for all users of these paths to be subjected to speeding scramblers (yes 'speeding'. It isnt the point to pootle along on these things and it wont be just scramblers. Have you thought about quad bikes too or any petrol vehicle capable of entry?) and the risk of injury they may cause to anyone else simply because they inconvenience us.
I'm still waiting for you to explain how any of the barriers above prevent access by scramblers or quad bikes. Small quad bikes can sail through bike-handlebar-height barriers because their handlebars are so much lower. Scramblers can also fit through, plus they can jump the low barriers.

But have you considered that their installation is only in places where petrol driven vehicles are a real problem? As I said someone must have done their homework. If it were carte blanche they'd be on all cycle paths.
The main reason they're not on all cycle paths is campaigning by CTC, Cyclenation and others that sometimes makes the fools who propose this junk to do their homework and discover that the barriers are worse than nothing.
What's surprised me in this thread is the total lack of public spiritedness among some cyclists. What's wrong for us apparently should not be allowed sums it up.
What's surprised me in this thread is the total lack of empathy or logic among certain crash-barrier fanatics. They must really hate cyclists.

Re: Using cycle paths

CTC Forum - On the road - 25 November 2014 - 12:15pm
snibgo wrote:ukdodger wrote:They do? You've left out speed bumps and all traffic calming measures which would appear to be very effective.
The equivalent on a cycle path would be as Tigerbiten and grani describe: barriers designed merely to slow cyclists, preventing them from hurtling over railway tracks or whatever. That's fair enough.

But a barrier that prevents me getting through with panniers of shopping, or parents with children, or recumbent trikes, or ... No. These are anti-cycling barriers. I suppose the idiot designers would deny this was their intention. But the result is anti-cycling.

ukdodger wrote:What's wrong for us apparently should not be allowed sums it up.
Barriers that prevent cycling on a cycle path are simply wrong. (Just as barriers that prevent wheelchairs and mobility scooters on footpaths are also wrong.)

I seriously doubt that any barrier design that allowed cyclists to go through unhindered would also bar access to a motorcycle.

They dont prevent you cycling on the path they only inconvenience you getting round them.

Re: Using cycle paths

CTC Forum - On the road - 25 November 2014 - 12:06pm
ukdodger wrote:They do? You've left out speed bumps and all traffic calming measures which would appear to be very effective.
The equivalent on a cycle path would be as Tigerbiten and grani describe: barriers designed merely to slow cyclists, preventing them from hurtling over railway tracks or whatever. That's fair enough.

But a barrier that prevents me getting through with panniers of shopping, or parents with children, or recumbent trikes, or ... No. These are anti-cycling barriers. I suppose the idiot designers would deny this was their intention. But the result is anti-cycling.

ukdodger wrote:What's wrong for us apparently should not be allowed sums it up.
Barriers that prevent cycling on a cycle path are simply wrong. (Just as barriers that prevent wheelchairs and mobility scooters on footpaths are also wrong.)

Re: Using cycle paths

CTC Forum - On the road - 25 November 2014 - 11:57am
Vorpal wrote:ukdodger wrote:So how many motorcycles have you ever come across?

Are you really speaking up for those who these barriers supposedly keep out or is that your own (and others here) annoyance of them leads you to believe that all users must obviously feel the same way. What about other path users who also dont want M/C's causing them an inconvenience. I seriously doubt walkers have any problem at all with them and they may indeed welcome them because they think they keep us out too. You'd have to be one brick short of a pile to take a mobility scooter on the C2C and much of it is impossible to get a trike over even without barriers.

Frankly if you think that allocating space for motorcyclists to play nicely somewhere else will stop illegal entry onto these paths you've more faith in human nature than I have. Skateboard parks did nothing to stop skateboarders doing it where they please and youth clubs never did stop kids collecting on street corners. Part of the fun is doing because you arent supposed too. The idea that the police are going to arrive and trash some riders M/C is fanciful. It would cost far too much to police these paths that way and yes maybe it is a sticking plaster rather than a solution but I say again everybody cant be catered for and it's better than nothing.
The only place I have encountered motorcycles on cycle paths is in places where there are barriers. I have never encountered motorcycles on the paths where there aren't barriers. It is scary and dangerous to encounter them. But the barriers obviously don't help. Or maybe only Essex motorcyclists think they are a challenge to target

TBH, if they actually stopped motorcycles from accessing the paths, I could almost understand it.

And I'm not suggesting that having a safe and legal place for young motorcyclsits to ride will stop all illegal motorcycling. But it will stop casual offenders, and leave it to those who are deliberately setting out to do something illegal and anti-social, rather than just wanting a place to ride.

People used to say that it wasn't possible for the police to enforce laws against drink driving. That it was 'fanciful' to expect the police to do anything about it unless someone had a crash. If that can change, so can this.

I realize that police currently do not set illegal motorcycling as a high priority in most areas. But they deal with it quickly enough when illegal motorcycling occurs in a national park, or on someone's estate, or when people have been killed or injured. Google for 'illegal motorcycling bikes seized' or 'police seize mini motos'. Some councils have videoed having the bikes crushed, then published them on YouTube to discourage offenders.

And I'm sure that some users do welcome barriers. But, I spoke to people in Essex about these things, and only a tiny minority of people actually wanted them. What I found was that when I asked people about them, I was regaled with stories about pensioners being rescued from them. Not just a few people, either. Anything from wheeled shopping bags to mobility scooters stuck in them.

I do realise that not many people hate them as passionately as I do, but I don't think that it is possible to cycle with children in the UK without developing a passionate hatred for these things. And IMO, our cycle paths should be designed for the most vulnerable users; the very people they curently exclude.

Why aren't barriers like this required in other countries? I have never seen them in the USA, Norway, Germany, Austria, Belgium, Sweden, Canada, Mexico, Denmark, or any other place I've cycled. Only in the UK.

It seems truly odd I've never encountered motorcycles on any path with these barriers. What's even stranger is that it is apparently Ok for all users of these paths to be subjected to speeding scramblers (yes 'speeding'. It isnt the point to pootle along on these things and it wont be just scramblers. Have you thought about quad bikes too or any petrol vehicle capable of entry?) and the risk of injury they may cause to anyone else simply because they inconvenience us. And that's my point. It isnt all about us. That's what gets us a bad name.

These barriers are not everywhere. I've only ever seen them on the C2C routes. I cant recall seeing them anywhere else but that doesnt mean there arent any. But have you considered that their installation is only in places where petrol driven vehicles are a real problem? As I said someone must have done their homework. If it were carte blanche they'd be on all cycle paths.

If legislation and policemen in cars made any difference to speeders in vehicles why are there speed bumps and traffic calming measures in use? Is it because they are most cost effective? There cant be many motorists that dont feel the same about these measures too yet I would guess that most motorists see them as a necessary evil for the benefit of all road users.

What's surprised me in this thread is the total lack of public spiritedness among some cyclists. What's wrong for us apparently should not be allowed sums it up.

Re: My worst tour, and why..

CTC Forum - Touring & Expedition - 25 November 2014 - 11:49am
Never had anything quite so disasterous as those examples!

My worst was a Tirol tour in 2011 with lots of wet days.

Day 1 torrential rain to St Gallen, day 2 woke floating after more overnight rain, day3 damp start then more distance than i expected, day 5 damp turning to torrential, day 6 foggy and damp before later light rain, repeat for day 8 with overnight torrential rain at Berchtesgaden, day 9 damp with low cloud ending with a puncture caused by a sharp stone on the road. Phew, day 10 light rain on and off all day, day 11 low cloud and rain until mid afternoon so cancelled assault on the Gross Gloeckner road, day 13 (shoulda known better!) abortive high pass crossing resulting in three day diversion from planned route, more damp in afternoon. Day 14 wet afternoon and into evening at Solden, river close to overflow, day 15 rain and low cloud over Silvretta ending with a 2km 20% climb to campsite, day 16 ended with 5km climb to campsite before more rain, day 17 wet most of the day over three passes to Zurich then the final morning it chucked it down getting back to the airport. Not only that but my cash card wouldnt work so for the middle week i was severely at a financial disadvantage! This was in August!

Despite all of the damp i had a great trip, the dry days were brilliant, the tent kept me dry even when it was floating! I did complete 15 pass crossings and clocked up @ 1200km.

Re: Using cycle paths

CTC Forum - On the road - 25 November 2014 - 10:13am
I've never seen them randomly scattered on cycle paths like they are in the UK.
But I've come across them the very odd time on the continent in ...........
Germany:- Bottom of a steep slope where the cycle track crossed a road.
Austria:- Where the cycle track crossed a main road. the cycle path had to gain about 5 foot to get to the road and the only way was a zig-zag so probably couldn't be helped.
Poland:- Crossing train tracks.
Lithuania:- Crossing train tracks.
So in most places they where for safety.
You have loads of gates along the North Sea cycle route but they are to keep sheep in.

Also a lot of places on the continent allow mopeds/scooters to uses cycle tracks and I never had a problem when I came across one on one.

Re: Skateboarders v cyclists..amazing footage

CTC Forum - On the road - 25 November 2014 - 9:11am
I'm also guessing that the boarders had to be a bit choosy about which hill they used - whereas the cyclists could chuck themselves down most tarmacked hills. As demonstrated by Guy Martin the other week when he tested different wheels on the same cart, the skate/luge wheels massively underperformed compared to bike wheels. If he'd have picked a velodrome smooth bit of road then things would have been closer.....but when was the last time you found a long, perfectly smooth bit of road, eh?

Re: Using cycle paths

CTC Forum - On the road - 25 November 2014 - 9:07am
Vorpal wrote:TBH, if they actually stopped motorcycles from accessing the paths, I could almost understand it.


I agree completely. They clearly don't as I have come across plenty on the inside of these barriers.

Vorpal wrote:I do realise that not many people hate them as passionately as I do, but I don't think that it is possible to cycle with children in the UK without developing a passionate hatred for these things. And IMO, our cycle paths should be designed for the most vulnerable users; the very people they curently exclude.



Absolutely! From a personal experience it is not practical for us as a family to go on the paths because of the barriers. I have helped people through the barriers myself, usually pensioners or just people that made the horrible mistake of actually carrying shopping on their bike. The barriers really make my blood boil and it boggles the mind how any of this even came into existence. I even feel the anger rising just writing this.

As for anyone welcoming those barriers. In my view you would have to be an "I´m alright Jack" type of person with a healthy dose of cynicism and distrust for your fellow man to take that view.

Just to touch on your last point. I have never come across anything similar in any other country. I would add Australia, New Zealand, Switzerland, France, Iceland to your list.

Re: My worst tour, and why..

CTC Forum - Touring & Expedition - 25 November 2014 - 8:57am
Spring this year in SE USA. Florida. Dogs. Deep fried food. Smokey bars. Dogs. Straight roads. Flat roads. Dogs. Spring break brats. Dogs. Deep fried food. A virus.

Re: Using cycle paths

CTC Forum - On the road - 25 November 2014 - 8:38am
ukdodger wrote:So how many motorcycles have you ever come across?

Are you really speaking up for those who these barriers supposedly keep out or is that your own (and others here) annoyance of them leads you to believe that all users must obviously feel the same way. What about other path users who also dont want M/C's causing them an inconvenience. I seriously doubt walkers have any problem at all with them and they may indeed welcome them because they think they keep us out too. You'd have to be one brick short of a pile to take a mobility scooter on the C2C and much of it is impossible to get a trike over even without barriers.

Frankly if you think that allocating space for motorcyclists to play nicely somewhere else will stop illegal entry onto these paths you've more faith in human nature than I have. Skateboard parks did nothing to stop skateboarders doing it where they please and youth clubs never did stop kids collecting on street corners. Part of the fun is doing because you arent supposed too. The idea that the police are going to arrive and trash some riders M/C is fanciful. It would cost far too much to police these paths that way and yes maybe it is a sticking plaster rather than a solution but I say again everybody cant be catered for and it's better than nothing.
The only place I have encountered motorcycles on cycle paths is in places where there are barriers. I have never encountered motorcycles on the paths where there aren't barriers. It is scary and dangerous to encounter them. But the barriers obviously don't help. Or maybe only Essex motorcyclists think they are a challenge to target

TBH, if they actually stopped motorcycles from accessing the paths, I could almost understand it.

And I'm not suggesting that having a safe and legal place for young motorcyclsits to ride will stop all illegal motorcycling. But it will stop casual offenders, and leave it to those who are deliberately setting out to do something illegal and anti-social, rather than just wanting a place to ride.

People used to say that it wasn't possible for the police to enforce laws against drink driving. That it was 'fanciful' to expect the police to do anything about it unless someone had a crash. If that can change, so can this.

I realize that police currently do not set illegal motorcycling as a high priority in most areas. But they deal with it quickly enough when illegal motorcycling occurs in a national park, or on someone's estate, or when people have been killed or injured. Google for 'illegal motorcycling bikes seized' or 'police seize mini motos'. Some councils have videoed having the bikes crushed, then published them on YouTube to discourage offenders.

And I'm sure that some users do welcome barriers. But, I spoke to people in Essex about these things, and only a tiny minority of people actually wanted them. What I found was that when I asked people about them, I was regaled with stories about pensioners being rescued from them. Not just a few people, either. Anything from wheeled shopping bags to mobility scooters stuck in them.

I do realise that not many people hate them as passionately as I do, but I don't think that it is possible to cycle with children in the UK without developing a passionate hatred for these things. And IMO, our cycle paths should be designed for the most vulnerable users; the very people they curently exclude.

Why aren't barriers like this required in other countries? I have never seen them in the USA, Norway, Germany, Austria, Belgium, Sweden, Canada, Mexico, Denmark, or any other place I've cycled. Only in the UK.

Re: Using cycle paths

CTC Forum - On the road - 25 November 2014 - 8:24am
mjr wrote:What would happen if roads were designed so typical driving commuters will each suffer 5 car crashes a year?
Yes.

It seems obvious that roads are designed, built and maintained to not cause crashes, that motorists don't need to get out and push, or lift their vehicles over obstructions.

We seem incapable of applying the same obvious principles to cycle paths.

1100km across Poland to support Polish hospices

CTC Forum - Touring & Expedition - 25 November 2014 - 7:53am
Cycle Poland: 13 - 21 June 2015

We are a group of volunteers and each year we organise a ride across Poland to support Polish hospices. We're looking for people to join us in 2015!

Our sixth ride will cross the whole country, starting in Gdańsk on the north coast, taking in rural villages in the east, and finishing in historic Kraków. Run entirely by volunteers, all funds raised provide vital medical equipment for Polish hospices. Join us in 2015 for a great adventure!

    9 days, 1100km
    £525 (covers bike transfers by courier, airport transfers, support van, 10 nights’ accommodation, most meals for 9 days and a personalised Cycle Poland jersey) + flights (around £150 return)
    The ride is fully supported and guided – so no carrying heavy packs or reading maps
    No minimum sponsorship
    A unique opportunity to visit hospices who will receive equipment funded by the money you raise, and see the positive impact of the ride first hand.
    Experience the history and bustle of the old Polish capital of Kraków, stay in atmospheric rural villages, and experience authentic Polish food and hospitality along the way
    Cycle with a team of Polish and British riders, joined by local volunteers and cyclists at the start and finish, creating a great sense of community

You can find more information and a registration form at http://www.alinafoundation.org/cycle-poland-2015. If you have any questions, please email info@alinafoundation.org.

For those new to cycling, or who want to train with others, we run a full programme of UK based training rides before the trip.

Come join us on a unique bike trip through a beautiful country!

Re: Cornish way / west country way

CTC Forum - Touring & Expedition - 25 November 2014 - 7:52am
I'm lucky. Charlestown is my closest beach. It's about a mile from my house .

Re: Amsterdam to the Battlefields of France/Belgium

CTC Forum - Touring & Expedition - 25 November 2014 - 3:10am
We rode through Holland this year, from near to Amsterdam (Leiden) through central and southern Holland then Belgium to Ypres. It is all very flat and you should find 40 miles a day an achievable distance, although there are so many places to stop and visit you might find yourself struggling to do even that on some days. I would say a mixture of coast and inland would be best as in my experience the coast can be quite windy and there are plenty of inland places that are worth detouring to.

In particular I liked the stretch along the coast between Katwijk and The Hague (there is a great bike path - as usual for Holland - and we even saw a police peloton!), Delft (there is a great campsite just outside the city, Dordrecht (a beautiful town on the confluence of 3 rivers).

The route through Holland / Flanders will be flat and well signposted and (as you probably know already) there are plenty of campsites in Holland. The site just outside Ypres is quite cheap and only 5 minutes ride to the centre of the city.

I can't help about riding around Somme but as it is in France you might find you need to plan more as the bike paths and helpful signs stop at the French border!

If you are interested you can read my CGOAB (days 109 to 120 ish, although we took a slightly more convoluted route through Southern Belgium that I don't really recommend) at www.fuelledbycake.co.uk.

Enjoy your trip.

Re: Using cycle paths

CTC Forum - On the road - 24 November 2014 - 10:57pm
Yes, walkers probably do welcome the barriers. If they're tight enough to keep motorbikes out, they keep most cycles out, and cycling budget has been stolen to build a footpath which a few bikes will be lifted onto.

We can cater for everyone and should. I wonder how these barriers sit with various accessibility laws.
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