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Re: Another cyclist death: left-turning lorry

CTC Forum - On the road - 25 February 2015 - 11:00pm
These dangers are man made, not natural occurrences.

In America they have incidents where children shoot their parents with their own guns. In the USA they will also see this as just a fact of living with guns and the parents own fault for being careless. Here we realise that such things will happen if you dont control the use of guns.

At the moment it is unthinkable to a car-centric population to restrict motorised traffic to a level which is safe for others. However times change and one day they will look back on this with the same horror we have for sending kids running weaving looms or up chimneys.

In the meantime the sensible way to avoid falling foul of a HGV while on a bike is to stay in a car instead. Which is what most of the population will sensibly continue to do until the situation changes. Because if you get it wrong, not only are you crushed but even fellow cyclists say it is your fault in a way that sounds like you almost deserved it. That sounds like a mugs' game to me when you can sit cosily in your car using your phone etc without any need to fear.
In this incident (it appears) the cyclist chose to be alongside the lorry while it was turning but that probably isnt what normally happens.

Re: Touring in Norway

CTC Forum - Touring & Expedition - 25 February 2015 - 10:57pm
Thank you everyone for the replies.
I'll say what i'm thinking of so far. I'm going to go by plane rather than ferry because there are no direct ferries and it's much cheaper to go by plane anyway. I'm not sure which airport i'll arrive in in oslo because i haven't decided which airline yet but i'll want to go into oslo while i'm there so i'll probably get a train from the airport to the center so i don't think it really matters which airport i go to. I'll then get to Haugestol where i'll follow the Rallersvegen to Flam. I thought i'd then get the ferry to Gudvangen to avoid the banned tunnels on the e16 for that section. I'd then continue along the e16 using the old roads to avoid the tunnels. I'm then not really sure what to do next. I think i could either continue towards Bergen or skip it and start going north and then following the north coast of sogneford going east. Is Bergen worth going to?
I haven't really thought much about from then onwards towards trondheim but i don't want to plan my route too much otherwise it won't have the spontaneity I want.

Re: Orange / Vaucluse / Luberon - ideas?

CTC Forum - Touring & Expedition - 25 February 2015 - 10:55pm
Was down that way 10+ years ago. Ventoux, yes, but also Col de Murs, Le Beaucet, Gordes. Watch out for the prices in Gordes: we sat down on a restaurant terrace towards lunchtime and they wanted 36€ for a salad.

And watch out for the insects:

Re: faroe islands anyone toured there, how did you get there

CTC Forum - Touring & Expedition - 25 February 2015 - 10:21pm
I have just found out that Eimskip also has a cargo ship sailing from Scrabster to the Faroes. Those ships used to take a couple of passengers so it would be worthwhile to ask.

Re: Another cyclist death: left-turning lorry

CTC Forum - On the road - 25 February 2015 - 10:15pm
Horizon

thinking about your comment on a need for changes that will alter the design and use of lorries, that is all theoretically possible , of course. And, as you point out, it will cost money. It would be a cost that we would all bear, since we are all customers of companies paying for lorry deliveries. I've got no problems with that in principle.

I look at lorries as a part of our way of living, not as something imposed upon us by others. They are there because our society needs them. They are driven by ordinary people just like you and me. They are on the roads because of us, the people who use the new buildings and the services they accommodate. We create the demand for lorries. We put them on the road.

Lorry drivers (like all drivers) have a moral duty to be careful around other people. No arguments there. But if a lorry driver takes care and the irresponsible actions of a cyclist lead to the cyclist being killed under the wheels of the lorry, the cyclist must be held responsible. None of us, not even a lorry driver, can be held responsible for something outside our control.

In the immediate future, with infrastructure and regulations as they are, we must look after ourselves. And we must tell anyone who will listen about the need to be careful when cycling near something big.

Re: faroe islands anyone toured there, how did you get there

CTC Forum - Touring & Expedition - 25 February 2015 - 10:13pm
If you want a alternative way of getting to the Faroes you can go to Scrabster (Thurso) in Scotland and you might be able to hitch a ride on a fishing boat from the Faroes. They sometimes go in there to land a catch and might be persuaded to take a passenger. I would however try to do a bit of research first.



When I was working on a boat we regularly went to Scrabster and we would not have refused a passenger.

Re: New Forest Tour

CTC Forum - Touring & Expedition - 25 February 2015 - 10:05pm
Deevoy88 wrote:Yes i do agree that two weeks is a long time for the new forest however this would be my first tour after being hit by a lorry two years ago. I have a artificial knee, 4 fused vertebrae in my back and also metal holding my right arm together from wrist to elbow. I am in no hurry trust me
I will be starting in Ashurst and "moving on" from there. If i do run out of miles then the I.O.W would be a option for me.

I have great respect for you. Best of luck and hope it all goes well.

Re: faroe islands anyone toured there, how did you get there

CTC Forum - Touring & Expedition - 25 February 2015 - 10:02pm
An interesting query. I have often thought it to be a place to visit but not necessarily with a bike. I thought you could once get there via the Shetlands but so many ferry routes have now gone.
I for one would find interesting any update on your successes or otherwise.

Re: faroe islands anyone toured there, how did you get there

CTC Forum - Touring & Expedition - 25 February 2015 - 9:55pm
Yeah it is a real shame. There used to be a ferry to the Faroes from Shetland and Aberdeen.



If you change your mind about flying then I think there will be direct flights between from Edinburgh starting this summer (www.atlantic.fo).



With regards to ferries in the Faroes there are a few odd ones going to tiny islands with hardly any people. They are a great experience.



There a couple of larger ones that go to the southern islands that I would recommend as either day trips or possibly overnight stays.

Re: Another cyclist death: left-turning lorry

CTC Forum - On the road - 25 February 2015 - 9:43pm
Ellieb wrote:
but you won't help matters if you just insist that none of it can ever be even partially due to the actions of the cyclist.

It may help if we accept that the accident was caused by the cyclist. The lorry, as far as we know, did nothing wrong.

But two facts remain:

1. The consequence was totally out of proportion to what the cyclist did.
2. It was the lorry that killed her.

So, morally, we want to prevent it. In practical terms that will involve better education for cyclists and new rules and regulations (and possibly higher costs) for lorries.

Re: New Forest Tour

CTC Forum - Touring & Expedition - 25 February 2015 - 9:38pm
Heltor Chasca wrote:Deevoy88 wrote:simonhill wrote:I don't understand this post. It says tour in the New Forest for two weeks. For me touring is essentially about moving on.

I would have thought you would need far less time 'to tour' the NF.



Isle of Wight is good for a few days, but that stil leaves plenty of time to continue the tour. Are you moving on or looking for a static base?

Hi
Yes i do agree that two weeks is a long time for the new forest however this would be my first tour after being hit by a lorry two years ago. I have a artificial knee, 4 fused vertebrae in my back and also metal holding my right arm together from wrist to elbow. I am in no hurry trust me
I will be starting in Ashurst and "moving on" from there. If i do run out of miles then the I.O.W would be a option for me.

Hey! Respect for being back on the saddle. Enjoy your tour. Have you got a back up plan/escape route in case the aches and pains kick in?

Cheers mate. Yeah lucky for me i have a very understanding wife who has said she would get me if it gets too much i am very determined though and have given myself a long time to do not alot of miles really. So hopefully pains and aches will not hinder me. Will obviously keep updating the forum

Re: faroe islands anyone toured there, how did you get there

CTC Forum - Touring & Expedition - 25 February 2015 - 9:31pm
I have a thing about islands, have toured Iceland/Shetland/Orkney (and most of the islands off the North West coast of Scotland), so Faroe looked like a fun place to go (I also like ferries!). Still very early stages of planning. Pity you can't get a ferry from the UK...

Re: Taking a bike on a train

CTC Forum - On the road - 25 February 2015 - 9:31pm
Ron wrote:horizon wrote: It is never straightforward to take a bike on a train in the UK.
Nonsense, but if you take your bike to a station with that attitude undoubtedly things will be less than straightforward.

Fair point.

But I speak from having turned up in good and cheerful spirits only to have station staff run over to me (on several occasions) to "assist" me not to get on the train.

The main point though is that "straightforward" applies to the two bikes rule: most of the time it won't affect you ... until it does.

Re: Another cyclist death: left-turning lorry

CTC Forum - On the road - 25 February 2015 - 9:27pm
Ellieb wrote:EDIT: The reason why you have to accept that the cyclist in this sort of incident need to accept some part of the responsibilty is because it has been reported (although I don't know if it has been statistically proven) that these sort of incidents happen disproportionally more to female cyclists.
I don't follow that quote. It appears to say that because women suffer these types of accidents more they need to take more responsibility for their actions... I'm not sure that's what you meant.

As an aside, it's been suggested that women are more likely to succumb simply because they're more likely to obey rules. For all the anecdotes that abound about rule breaking cyclists they seem to be under represented in the accident stats - at least superficially.

Re: CAMS (Cycle Accident Management Service - Help!

CTC Forum - On the road - 25 February 2015 - 9:24pm
GregWoods

I think it's important to be aware that personal injury claims can take a long time to settle.

On the matter of C-AMS more generally, it looks to me as though they have extended the system of car accident management to cycling accidents. C-AMS is a subsidiary of Direct Accident Management about which I know nothing except what I've read in their www:-
https://www.google.co.uk/#q=direct+accident+management
This is again speaking generally about the "accident management" industry.

For most owner/drivers involved in a car crash, the biggest problem is continued access to a car while their own is off the road. If the other party is to blame, you can hire another and add reasonable costs to your eventual claim off the other driver, but that's a gamble most people are chary of taking since they may end up paying for it themselves if their claim is successfully rebutted. Even with the rock solid claim, not everybody can afford to pay car fees out of their own savings, even if they are confident of getting the money back eventually. Twenty-five to thirty years ago, schemes began to be set up to indemnify "innocent" drivers for these costs. I've posted before that in 1991, I had an almost-new car written off when I was shunted. My own garage pointed me towards a scheme run jointly by the Association of British Insurers (ABI) and the Vehicle Builders and Repairers Association (VBRA) The shunt made the case clear cut and they got me a hire car without problems, while mine was replaced. There seemed to be little control of costs. I returned the hire car as soon as mine was fixed but they rang me weeks (months ?) later to ask when I would be taking it back. In due course they funded a lawyer who got me what seemed a decent settlement for my injuries. Somehwre along the line, I asked somebody where the money was coming from and they explained they hired the cars at a wholesale rate and charged the other party retail.

Although "my" scheme was partly run by the ABI, the insurance companies did not like this type of thing at all, since it inevitably increased their costs. Several cases went to court and having been involved myself I took particular interest. One of the arguments was that the law did not allow a third party to support another in a legal claim for damages: it's known as "champerty." IIRC, the insurers lost more cases than they one in trying to outlaw this practice. I get the impression that it's mushroomed.

The difference between the typical bike crash that results in a compo claim and the majority of car crashes is that personal injury is likely to be more important. (I'm not saying that people are not injured in car crashes, just that most car crashes are "damage only" and that car repairs tend to cost much more than bike repairs.) ie I'm not sure that a system intended to enable drivers to keep driving is necessarily the best to help cyclists who have been in a crash.

Not much use to anybody who has already signed up with a lawyer, but here's something I prepared earlier.
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=49627

PS Forgot to say: If it's a damage-only bike crash, then the only realistic way to get the £££ out of a reluctant driver is through the small claims court system. Not necessarily for everybody, but it is intended to keep lawyers out. I was reading something recently which was saying that the Ministry of Justice is trying to simplify this system along the lines of the Ebay dispute resolution system. The case would only go to a judge if the online resolution system didn't work.

PPS Also forgot to say: if you go to a solicitor/ firm of solicitors, they are bound by certain rules intended to protect clients even though, as others have posted, they are not all up to the same standard or necessarily experienced in a particular type of case eg representing cyclists who have been knocked off their bike. I think claims handling companies are covered only by the general law and have no professional rules. If a case results in litigation, at that stage they will instruct a solicitor, of their choosing.

Re: Taking a bike on a train

CTC Forum - On the road - 25 February 2015 - 9:13pm
Must congratulate a Merseyrail train driver on 12th Feb I was getting a local train in to Liverpool, as it was late it was quite full, and a cyclist (with bike!) getting off wished me luck as it was packed. Another two bikes got on before me, so I told driver I would wait for next train ( no prob. for me would have been a 10 min wait plus my mate was on that train.) with that the driver got out of compartment and asked standing passengers to 'move along' thus making plenty of room for three bikes.
I have noticed, similar to buses, passengers prefer to congregate near exit doors and stand next to bikes, even when seats are available. Some even sit on seats where bike designated area is!!

Re: faroe islands anyone toured there, how did you get there

CTC Forum - Touring & Expedition - 25 February 2015 - 9:05pm
The Faroes are of course small but most of the islands are now connected by road. There are definitely some amazing scenic routes and I think 1 week of riding would see you cover most of the important bits. The weather is unpredictable and it is generally quite hilly so I would build a bit of flexibility into the schedule.



I would try to combine the riding with other sight seeing, hiking and possibly boat trips around the bird cliffs.



A lot of people combine a trip to the Faroes with a trip to Iceland as there is a ferry to Iceland from Torshavn.

Re: Another cyclist death: left-turning lorry

CTC Forum - On the road - 25 February 2015 - 8:54pm
I can't help thinking that some people on this forum think that it is a cyclist's right to ride on a road in traffic without any degree of skill or care.
Hmm Perhaps i could have phrased it better.

The point I am making is that in order to cycle safely, you do actually need to display a degree of skill and care. If not, then what about when you come across a pedestrain? Are you not supposed to be able to behave safely around them. Even allowing for that, you cannot have completely incompetent people moving around on bikes and expect everyone on four (or two motorised) wheels to be wholly responsible for avoiding the consequences of their unsafe actions (I'll say once again, I am not directly relating this statement to this accident as we don't know exactly what happened). I am not suggesting that every cyclist is going to need the skill and experience that I suspect most people on this forum possess. But they do have to behave on the roads safely: Going up the inside of a moving, indicating lorry ought to be self-evidently dangerous, you don't need 30 years and 50,000 miles of cycling to appreciate that this is so.

EDIT: The reason why you have to accept that the cyclist in this sort of incident need to accept some part of the responsibilty is because it has been reported (although I don't know if it has been statistically proven) that these sort of incidents happen disproportionally more to female cyclists. If that is the case then it would help to stop it happening if we could find out why. This may involve in the cyclists being in some way responsible...Or it may not, but you won't help matters if you just insist that none of it can ever be even partially due to the actions of the cyclist.

Re: Rotterdam > Istanbul - Which bike?

CTC Forum - Touring & Expedition - 25 February 2015 - 8:51pm
I'm sure you will love it

Re: Another cyclist death: left-turning lorry

CTC Forum - On the road - 25 February 2015 - 8:49pm
We don't have blame someone in order to find a way to prevent it from happening again.
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