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Re: Another cyclist death: left-turning lorry

CTC Forum - On the road - 25 February 2015 - 1:17pm
pwa wrote:My neighbour fell off his roof a few years ago whilst trying to fix a broken ridge tile. Had he died, nobody would have pointed out that there should be no death penalty for falling off a roof.
In effect, they might have, by pointing out that a safety harness should have been used. Compare with:
BBC wrote:Safety nets could have been used under the roof space, a safety harness could have been worn and barriers put around the skylights, the jury was told.

"This is undoubtedly a tragedy for him, but the uncomfortable truth is it should have been avoided," Mr Wicks said.
(The employer was cleared of manslaughter and no verdict was reached on whether it was careless http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-be ... s-29625761 - but still, someone pointed it out, contrary to pwa's expectation.)

What bothers me most about some people's response to this incident is the lack of shock at the poor cycling that, at the very least, was a major contributory factor. It's as if some of us think we have no responsibility to look after ourselves because that is always somebody else's job. I'm all for blaming lorry drivers when they have done something wrong, but in this case we have to look a bit closer to home.
Why would you expect shock? We know it (and much worse) happens and poor road designers even encourage it in similar situations by painting cycle lanes on the inside of left curves through traffic lights. https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.75644 ... WOSqZw!2e0 for one soon-to-be-removed example (which has probably had only one serious collision nearby mainly because that curve isn't so sharp, there are ways to avoid that nasty junction in most directions - including riding across the pelicans between the car parks like the pictured cyclist does - and most remaining riders ignore the lane).

We also know lorry drivers don't watch their sides like the Highway Code tells them to, so we're not shocked by that either. Both are wrong and it's also wrong that the road layouts are like that one. This time, everyone failed and we all lose, but the cyclist paid the ultimate price and that was avoidable in many ways. Why is it that some people seem happy to excuse everyone's mistakes except the one who can no longer argue back?

Re: Another cyclist death: left-turning lorry

CTC Forum - On the road - 25 February 2015 - 1:03pm
[XAP]Bob wrote:
BUT - she went where we are repeatedly told to go, by all sorts of sources, including our esteemed road designers.

I don't understand. Can you explain this point in more detail please?

Re: Another cyclist death: left-turning lorry

CTC Forum - On the road - 25 February 2015 - 1:01pm
mjr wrote:Tom Richardson wrote:The risk might be low but why risk it at all when the penalty for a mistake (or someone else's mistake or negligence) is death or serious injury? The consequences are many and all around to see.
Beyond some limit, it doesn't matter how huge the penalty for a mistake is! That's why we don't try to get perfect road use by having the police execute everyone that commits any traffic offence, isn't it? Or why you're not allowed to build vehicles with huge spikes that will impale the operator if they crash?

Why is anyone not willing to act to reduce the number of death penalties for walkers and riders who commit minor traffic offences?

Because society has decided what its priorities are. And sadly protecting vulnerable road users isn't a priority. The road casualty rate in this country is actually pretty low and there are not enough votes in policies that make drastic improvements on vulnerable road users. The majority want low taxes and to drive everywhere. Things can change though if enough people are vocal enough and I see things are moving in the right direction.

It's just a sad fact that vulnerable road users need to take responsibility themselves to minimise the risks they face on the roads. Even then they're at risk from mistakes by other road users. Then the choice is whether the risk from others is too great. There are roads I won't cycle on due to the risks I think being too high.

Re: Another cyclist death: left-turning lorry

CTC Forum - On the road - 25 February 2015 - 12:44pm
Noone is saying that the women in this case (assuming the eyewitness account is a true reflection) didn't do something that many would consider daft. I don't think there are many blaming the driver - they are blaming the system for allowing one person to be in charge of something where it is patently absurd to expect them to be able to monitor quite such an area of a busy street single-handedly.

BUT - she went where we are repeatedly told to go, by all sorts of sources, including our esteemed road designers. It would also have been to the outside of a vehicle in France, not to their inside (although frankly when a lorry is turning I get as far away as practicable).

Without the hoardings the mistake might have been survivable with a tumble onto the pavement, with a co-driver able to say "stop" then the result would have been an embarrassed lady and a 30 second delay on a handful of journeys.

With everything against her the mistake, encouraged by our road designs, was enough to lead to a fatality.

Re: Advice sought on choosing a touring bike

CTC Forum - Touring & Expedition - 25 February 2015 - 12:38pm
Tangled Metal wrote:Last year saw us ride PD bridleways with trailer and child seat options for our lad. White Dales area near high peak trail. Used mtb style hybrid and she had a mtb. Rocky trail, would the rb Expedition be needed or would you get by with a 700c tourer? Are thin mtb tyres that much stronger on these small wheel tourers?
I've ridden a road bike with 700 X 28 tyres on rocky off road trails. It just requires a little more care than with a mountain bike, tourer, or hybrid. I can't imagine any place that one could ride with a child where a tourer with at least 32 mm tyres wouldn't be appropriate.

Re: Another cyclist death: left-turning lorry

CTC Forum - On the road - 25 February 2015 - 12:36pm
Horizon

This particular incident, from witness accounts, was primarily brought about by a young woman doing something most (all?) of us would regard as crazy. There has been debate about what additional safety measures could have protected her after her mistake, but her mistake was not a minor lapse in judgement, it was crazy. There is no death penalty for a crazy mistake. It's silly to say that there is. But death is sometimes the result of really bad mistakes. My neighbour fell off his roof a few years ago whilst trying to fix a broken ridge tile. Had he died, nobody would have pointed out that there should be no death penalty for falling off a roof. We have no reason to think that the lorry driver was anything other than another victim in this case. The woman died, and that is not an outcome any of us would want, but that does not mean somebody else is to blame.

What bothers me most about some people's response to this incident is the lack of shock at the poor cycling that, at the very least, was a major contributory factor. It's as if some of us think we have no responsibility to look after ourselves because that is always somebody else's job. I'm all for blaming lorry drivers when they have done something wrong, but in this case we have to look a bit closer to home.

Re: Another cyclist death: left-turning lorry

CTC Forum - On the road - 25 February 2015 - 12:25pm
Tom Richardson wrote:The risk might be low but why risk it at all when the penalty for a mistake (or someone else's mistake or negligence) is death or serious injury? The consequences are many and all around to see.
Beyond some limit, it doesn't matter how huge the penalty for a mistake is! That's why we don't try to get perfect road use by having the police execute everyone that commits any traffic offence, isn't it? Or why you're not allowed to build vehicles with huge spikes that will impale the operator if they crash?

Why is anyone not willing to act to reduce the number of death penalties for walkers and riders who commit minor traffic offences?

Re: Another cyclist death: left-turning lorry

CTC Forum - On the road - 25 February 2015 - 12:18pm
irc wrote:In the meantime road users need to help themselves as much as they can.

pwa wrote:Alan
Don't you think cyclists also have a part to play in keeping themselves safe?

Most people seem to recognise this - and respond by avoiding use of public spaces in any way that makes them vulnerable. The risk might be low but why risk it at all when the penalty for a mistake (or someone else's mistake or negligence) is death or serious injury? The consequences are many and all around to see.

Re: Another cyclist death: left-turning lorry

CTC Forum - On the road - 25 February 2015 - 12:04pm
pwa wrote:Alan

that's a bit one-sided isn't it? Don't you think cyclists also have a part to play in keeping themselves safe?

Yes and the woman should have been fined £20 for going up the inside of a left turning lorry. End of story.

But that wasn't the penalty - it was death. And the death penalty has been abolished even for murder.

pwa: with the greatest respect, this false idea of moral equivalence permeates this forum. Why is that? Where did it come from?

Re: Another cyclist death: left-turning lorry

CTC Forum - On the road - 25 February 2015 - 12:02pm
pwa wrote:Alan

that's a bit one-sided isn't it? Don't you think cyclists also have a part to play in keeping themselves safe?
A secondary part.
It's not just cyclists, we're outnumbered significantly by pedestrian KSI's. And pedestrians aren't required to have any training or even be compos mentis.

Primary care is with vehicle design and drivers, they're the operators of dangerous equipment in urban environments. They're the ones supposedly trained to operate that equipment safely and supposedly physically able to.
Next is the road design, poor junctions, conflict etc.

Sorting those out is the low hanging fruit that will bring the largest rewards.

After those then if all else fails hoping the cyclist/pedestrian has both the nounce and ability to avoid getting into a situation where a drivers mistake can kill is a good fallback.

(Last week I had to take avoiding action when a bus that wanted to move into the left hand lane started an overtake and then indicated and pulled across. No amount of cyclist training will fix issues like that but fixing the drivers will.)

Re: Another cyclist death: left-turning lorry

CTC Forum - On the road - 25 February 2015 - 11:10am
irc wrote:Rely on other road users to be perfect or try to anticipate and avoid as many hazards as possible before they become accidents?

Yes, roads and vehicle design can be improved. As can driver training and law enforcement. In the meantime road users need to help themselves as much as they can.
You are perfectly correct: The operators of large, heavy vehicles on public roads should not be relying on other road users being perfect in order to avoid death.

Re: Orange / Vaucluse / Luberon - ideas?

CTC Forum - Touring & Expedition - 25 February 2015 - 10:08am
Oh, and I don't want to include the high alpine passes, eg Cayolle, Bonnette. I've done them before and much though I love them I am conscious that my daughter will not see the funny side.

Re: Advice sought on choosing a touring bike

CTC Forum - Touring & Expedition - 25 February 2015 - 9:00am
Last year saw us ride PD bridleways with trailer and child seat options for our lad. White Dales area near high peak trail. Used mtb style hybrid and she had a mtb. Rocky trail, would the rb Expedition be needed or would you get by with a 700c tourer? Are thin mtb tyres that much stronger on these small wheel tourers?

Re: Bikes on Belgian trains

CTC Forum - Touring & Expedition - 25 February 2015 - 8:48am
Does anyone know what time specifically the rush hour restrictions apply to?

Re: Flying with German Wings

CTC Forum - Touring & Expedition - 25 February 2015 - 1:27am
When they say box, they almost certainly mean a bespoke cardboard box for carrying a bike. The sort you get for free at your LBS or occasionally supplied by the airline.

Bag is more open to interpretation. You could argue the CTC poly thing is a bag they may agree or disagree.

I always use a box to save any arguments.

One airline included bag wrap as an option, I used domestic clingfilm and got away with it. Not recommended, but very portable!!

Re: Telford Town Centre Revamp

CTC Forum - On the road - 25 February 2015 - 12:09am
bikersalive wrote:Telford is still an awful place to get about by cycle. Cycle-ways that are not continuous mean lots of road use and criss-crossing to complete a route. Very poor surfaces are common and many of the Town Park paths are a mess, literally, considering the amount spent on supposed improvements. Negotiating some of the paths through housing areas is hazardous too, with rubbish (boxes, old furniture and syringes etc.) common place. Don't try cycling to any of the supermarkets either, the routes are so torturous it's quicker to walk.

Fortunately, the Newport to Stafford cycle-way (former railway line) is now complete and the surface throughout the 15 miles is easy for most types of bike.

Thanks for all the info, all of you.

The Newport-Stafford route is not great in some places. Between Derrington and Stafford is like riding on ballast, unpleasant on the hands if you have a road bike as I do, though do-able. There's a bad cattle crossing (often muddy) between Gnosall and Haughton. None of the route is tarmac, which I think it ought all to be if they seriously want people to commute on it (as they claim they do). Around Gnosall inconsiderate horse riders have damaged the clay-like surface in places (this occurred almost as soon as that section was laid).
The drainage is poor in some of the older parts, i.e. mostly closer to the Stafford end, though I've never yet found it to be impassable on a road bike. Access at Gnosall is steep and awkward where you have to come off the path, drop to road level, cross the road (at lights, which is good) and then get back up to track level again. There aren't maps showing where you are at access points, so you have to count bridges if you're not local and are navigating to interim roads or locations; it's easy to count wrong and end up on the wrong minor side road; be warned, signposts on rural roads here are often non-existent.
The new bit at the Newport end I hope to try next week, will report then if I do; not sure how it crosses the A41, which is a nasty road; hopefully it goes under it.

There is a good route the other side of Stafford, clay across Doxey Marshes, which is a nature reserve so that's fair enough, otherwise tarmac, going out to the ring road towards the Sandon road, but it floods under the Eccleshall Road Bridge in very wet weather and can be impassable there.

Re: Flying with German Wings

CTC Forum - Touring & Expedition - 24 February 2015 - 11:59pm
Regarding cycle paths from the airport, have a look at http://www.ridewithgps.com. Select the "plan" tab and choose the OSM Cycle map (top right corner of the map) and I think you'll find what you need.

Re: Another cyclist death: left-turning lorry

CTC Forum - On the road - 24 February 2015 - 10:57pm
Rely on other road users to be perfect or try to anticipate and avoid as many hazards as possible before they become accidents?

Yes, roads and vehicle design can be improved. As can driver training and law enforcement. In the meantime road users need to help themselves as much as they can.

Re: Advice sought on choosing a touring bike

CTC Forum - Touring & Expedition - 24 February 2015 - 10:55pm
I have just bought a Dawes Galaxy Classic from Winstanley's..superb value for money..almost half price.The saving has allowed me to purchase some top of the range rear panniers (ARKEL)and a Brooks B17 Select saddle..also Brooks leather handlebar tape.If you contact Winstanleys and tell them which models you are interested in they will offer you a chance to try them out.They have a number of cycles on display but not their complete range.I notice you live in the Lake District so it would be a short sprint down the M6 to visit them....Best wishes.

Re: North Germany to Berlin

CTC Forum - Touring & Expedition - 24 February 2015 - 10:55pm
Keep off the main road to Rostock - heavy traffic (lots of lorries) and a scary lip from tbe road surface to the dirt on the side.
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