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Re: Another cyclist death: left-turning lorry

CTC Forum - On the road - 26 February 2015 - 2:11pm
It's also an awful lot of slippery slope from a few protected spaces for cycling to denying access to the carriageway, but many people used that for a long time to justify opposing it.

That has actually happened and there wasnt much slope between the two. When they want to forbid cyclists from using a road, they have to provide an alternative, sometimes a protected space for cycling filled the bill well enough for them.

Re: Another cyclist death: left-turning lorry

CTC Forum - On the road - 26 February 2015 - 1:57pm
beardy wrote:It is an awful lot of slippery slope between banning a particular manoeuvre which is believed to directly cause regular frequent deaths and denying access to public highways.
ITYM contribute to, not "cause". It's also an awful lot of slippery slope from a few protected spaces for cycling to denying access to the carriageway, but many people used that for a long time to justify opposing it.
reohn2 wrote:I'm going to pull the plug this,nothing is being advanced by me continuing.
I'm sorry anyone's position is immutable. To be clear, I don't feel the more damaging road user (whether motorist on person, or rider on walker) necessarily carries the most blame but they almost always carry some. It's part of why I'd like to see presumed liability here.

Re: Another cyclist death: left-turning lorry

CTC Forum - On the road - 26 February 2015 - 1:53pm
pwa wrote: But I do think that much of built-up Britain was, from a modern perspective, badly designed.

pwa: most of Britain was beautifully designed and we still benefit from it today. The streets were built to a pedestrian scale with delightful buildings on either side, doorways, shops, people, activity. Nothing wrong with built-up Britain.

Modern lorries OTOH are appallingly badly designed. They are far too high and wide for there to be good visibility close to the vehicle and far too large for the streets they apparently want go down. Failure on a large scale.

Re: faroe islands anyone toured there, how did you get there

CTC Forum - Touring & Expedition - 26 February 2015 - 1:50pm
http://www.beaconrcc.org.uk/hubub/2014/ ... -forecast/
This is an article I wrote for CTC magazine some years ago following a four week stay camping by bike. Great place.

Re: Another cyclist death: left-turning lorry

CTC Forum - On the road - 26 February 2015 - 1:44pm
MJR
I'm going to pull the plug this,nothing is being advanced by me continuing.

Re: Cyclists are treated as if they are staionary.

CTC Forum - On the road - 26 February 2015 - 1:26pm
Absolutely. Larger vehicles (lorries, busses, etc.) are far worse.

e.g. cycling along at 20 mph in a 30 limit, vehicles don't seem to realise how long it would take to pass something if they were only going at 10 mph. so they (without thinking) seem to do the same as when passing a stationary object.

Maybe cars misjudge it as well but being shorter results in things not getting so close.

And the absolute insult (a month ago) was a Travis Perkins lorry pulling in far far too close, only to present me with a real close-up view of their "Cyclists Stay Back" sticker on the back of the lorry !!!

Ian

Re: Another cyclist death: left-turning lorry

CTC Forum - On the road - 26 February 2015 - 1:26pm
It is an awful lot of slippery slope between banning a particular manoeuvre which is believed to directly cause regular frequent deaths and denying access to public highways.

Re: Another cyclist death: left-turning lorry

CTC Forum - On the road - 26 February 2015 - 1:20pm
pwa wrote:It's not your fault, as it's not clear from Google, but Pontycymmer is in a very steep sided valley, and turning off the main street involves a very steep sudden climb in most cases. Almost all the streets have characterful terraces of stone houses. Separation of use is not something I can imagine in that situation.
I thought it was pretty clear from both the Streetview (you've handrails and other telltales) and the contours on the map I linked. It's not the Italian mountains, though, and they still separate use there.

Otherwise, you get Pontycymmer's current situation of all the characterful streets being blighted by motor traffic and the safest streets for non-motorised users being the least convenient ones at the top and bottom (although cycle collision stats look marginal, with one slight injury at a crossroads on Victoria Street and I'm not aware of the Welsh equivalent of http://road-collisions.dft.gov.uk ).
beardy wrote:... I don't think this law's going to happen soon. Could you stick to more realistic measures like improving junction layouts?

No, I will not.

Just because they may not want to deliver it, doesnt mean that we are not going to self-censor it from our lists. same goes for presumed liability, we are not going to say "The Daily Mail doesnt like it, so thats the end of that".

If I have to settle for peanuts like "improved" junction layouts, that will not stop me suggesting what we really should be getting. Not that I am particularly in favour of an inside filtering ban but it is an option and I also think it is a more viable and possible option than you do, there is quite widespread support for restricting cyclists' activities.
Firstly, if you can start that ball rolling, where do you think it will it stop? Cycles banned from all rural A roads? B roads too? All routes with lorry signs? All roads where off-road tracks exist, no matter how crap?

Secondly, I wasn't entirely serious and was simply reversing the argument often posted by law-change advocates against infrastructure campaigns, such as viewtopic.php?p=668185#p668185 and many others.

Re: Not all bad..

CTC Forum - On the road - 26 February 2015 - 1:16pm
pwa wrote:A car followed me at a respectful distance for over a minute on a hill with no good passing spots. A school minibus did the same a little later...
I would pull over and let the vehicles past in that situation, but I suppose there are different schools of thought. Still, glad you had such a nice ride.

pwa wrote:...And a farmer called his very well behaved sheepdog to heel as I approached and we exchanged cheery hellos as I passed. It was nice to be on the bike.
Not a sheepdog, a snowy landscape (England, not Wales!), but that put me in mind of this, by the cycling artist Frank Patterson:

Patterson Byway Riding (snow) edit (Large).jpg

Re: Touring in Norway

CTC Forum - Touring & Expedition - 26 February 2015 - 1:15pm
The Map Shop is a very good source for Norwegian maps, and also very helpful at advising if you aren't sure quite what you need: http://www.themapshop.co.uk/europe/rest/norway.htm The Nordeca 1:50,000 series covers the whole country -- but probably give more detail than you really need for cycle touring (and the cost mounts up, too!). You can get away with the 1:400,000 'Veikart' maps (4 sheets for the whole country) if you aren't planning on going off-road (to any great extent), and don't mind not knowing how steep the hills will be until you get to them (there's something to be said for ignorance being bliss, actually...). A compromise are the 1:100,000 'special sheets', which show contours, and a bit more detail -- but which don't cover the whole country (there's an index map on the Map Shop webpage).

Re. your question about Bergen: I'd say it's worth visiting -- it's one of my favourite cities in Norway (or anywhere). But: it isn't the nicest city to cycle in or out of, I have to say. It might be worth using a train or boat to avoid slogging through the suburbs? (There's a fast boat route from the end of the Sognefjord down to Bergen [and vice versa]).

Re: Weight distribution.

CTC Forum - Touring & Expedition - 26 February 2015 - 1:09pm
jamesgilbert wrote:I don't think I've ever heard of someone having heavier front panniers than rear, maybe it's the other way round? There was quite a lengthy discussion about the pros and cons of front panniers here: viewtopic.php?f=16&t=89652


I thought it quite unusual advice but it may well be geared towards getting an even distribution of overall weight across the length of the bike? It sort of makes sense if you look at it that way. The video from the Adventure Cycling group and America bicycle is quite clear on the advice..........

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=to0YTIj_tyY

weight distribution in panniers is covered approx 1.00 minute in.

Cyclists are treated as if they are staionary.

CTC Forum - On the road - 26 February 2015 - 1:08pm
I think that most of my conflicts with non-belligerent motorists come down to the fact that they have failed to take into account the fact that I am moving. They sub-consciously plan their route as if I am a static item like a bollard rather than a moving object.

This is the most common reason for cars and more importantly HGVs cutting across me when they overtake. They did not mean to cut across me, they just complete the manoeuvre as if I was totally static rather than just going a bit slower. I bet that the majority of left hooks are down to this.

Re: Pinch points.

CTC Forum - On the road - 26 February 2015 - 12:57pm
It is never a threat from cars behind you, they have already come alongside and then it is just a battle of wills. Your ears tell you whether they are planning coming through or holding back even with earphones on.

Re: Weight distribution.

CTC Forum - Touring & Expedition - 26 February 2015 - 12:42pm
I have made the decision that I am willing to trade off any handling issues for the weight savings.

I often tour (and ride) with a very rear heavy bike, I can feel that this causes handling problems especially off the bike. However I soon got used to it and the bike which I do it to is very good at taking it.
On a 200ish mile weekend tour I may feel it is an issue a couple of times. Most of the time I feel like I am not on a fully loaded tourer so much as a slightly heavy Audax bike. It is most noticeable when I am carrying my food shopping as well as camping gear. Without my weight on the bike the front wheel goes skyward at the slightest provocation. On the plus side I can get through obstructions like kissing gates very easily, just pop it on its back wheel and push it through.

Re: Weight distribution.

CTC Forum - Touring & Expedition - 26 February 2015 - 12:30pm
jamesgilbert wrote:I don't think I've ever heard of someone having heavier front panniers than rear, maybe it's the other way round? There was quite a lengthy discussion about the pros and cons of front panniers here: viewtopic.php?f=16&t=89652

A long time ago in Ireland I bumped into a couple of French ladies on a long tour but hosteling/b&bs. They just had 2 large front panniers only and were very happy with this arrangement. I was camping and added small front panniers to my large rears, this also worked well for me until I lost one front pannier when I tore down a steep straight lane only to find that the surfacing ran out in the dip at the bottom, brought home how important it is have a well secured and balanced front load!

Re: East West C2C Spanish Pyrenees Tour.

CTC Forum - Touring & Expedition - 26 February 2015 - 12:18pm
Thanks both for the helpful replies!

sweatpee - in light of what you are saying here I might have a go at the unnamed route but then have some alternative surfaced road options planned out if the unpaved sections turn out to be too much to be enjoyable. I've done off road touring through New Zealand before and loved the challenge and complete lack of traffic. However I know a 3000m day + off road is tough I just have a feeling this will be tougher so I will plan my days carefully if I go ahead with this in the summer.

Interesting what you say about the EV1 route as well, I had it recommended to me but I always wondered if that person was recommending it on the basis of it being flat : )

Anyway I will report back with the details of what I ended up doing!

Thanks,

Re: Another cyclist death: left-turning lorry

CTC Forum - On the road - 26 February 2015 - 11:58am
reohn2 wrote:IMO that's a perfectly reasonable rule/law to implement which should also be followed up with a public information schedule,including TV,radio,billboard and any other media available used to reinforce and drive home the message.
You'd struggle these days to reach everyone. It's not like the old days when pretty much everyone sat in front of one of the 3 tv channels on an evening. I can go weeks without watching TV or listening to the Radio. I don't see any billboards and I tend not to watch anything containing ad's and use ad blockers on my computers. In short it'd be too expensive.

Out of interest, just how many deaths are actually due to cyclists riding up the inside of lorries?
How many are due to lorries overtaking cyclists and then turning left? (Certainly I know of more of these than the first).

What would concern me is survivors justice. "Sorry m'lud but they must have cycled up the inside of my lorry, as a professional driver with 40 years blemish free driving..." yada yada.

In short I think that even if you spent a small fortune I'd put money on it you'd barely dent the KSI's. OTOH it's not beyond the wit of man to make sure lorries are safer both by design and in the way their operated. I'm more than a little suspicious that all these deaths involve tippers - a truck type amazingly over-represented and which IME are frequently driven so badly as to be criminal (Grundy's Skip Hire of Widnes - I'm looking at you).

I've no issue with education (or attempts thereof) but it should be done hand in hand with other things because otherwise I reckon it's a waste of time.

Re: Another cyclist death: left-turning lorry

CTC Forum - On the road - 26 February 2015 - 11:56am
I was a regular on those roads, doing multidrops from Cardiff and general van deliveries. Those roads were quite memorable as you are driving along permanently trying to squeeze through, dodging mirrors of parked and approaching cars. The state of constant concentration for such precision was quite tiring.

However they are pretty safe for vulnerable road users because I had to keep the speed of my van down and there was no space to try and squeeze past, you had to wait for a passing place.

Re: Another cyclist death: left-turning lorry

CTC Forum - On the road - 26 February 2015 - 11:45am
Alan (in Wales?)

How would you suggest we improve matters in the nineteenth century roads of Pontycymmer, where the roads are fairly narrow, cars have to park on the street, delivery vehicles have to use the same roads as cyclists and pedestrians. There is a very nice cycle track, but people have to walk or cycle down the streets to get to it. Do you want to go up there and tell people that they cannot have cars any more? Do you suggest deliveries to shops are forbidden, or can only happen after midnight? I'm not sure how you would change things for the better in the real world outside London. We don't start with a clean slate. We start with what we have.

Re: Pinch points.

CTC Forum - On the road - 26 February 2015 - 11:41am
I see no need for a mirror at no point in all of this am I unaware what the cars are doing or where they are.
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