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Re: Has anyone ever won green and yellow in the TDF

22 July 2015 - 7:37pm
I was posting in reply to a suggestion that Merckx's domination of the TdeF implied doping.

Beyond that, it's generally likely to be futile comparing success at sport between generations because of changing conditions. (There's an argument that they are all softies compared with Eugene Christophe.) Naming a few other prominent strong riders tends to support what I said about the rank-and-file and I suspect that evidence to describe any of Merckx's contemporaries as strong would include their success in beating him - a bit circular. This took place in my golden youth and Merckx is just a few months younger than I am but I've dumped the rose-tinted specs.

Re: ITV4 Tour Coverage.

22 July 2015 - 7:21pm
And he was presented with a 40 year anniversary yellow jersey after today's stage.

New TDF Awards ideas

22 July 2015 - 6:36pm
Any ideas for new jerseys that should be awarded, either during, or at the finish of the TDF.

How about.

Carrying on injured award, maybe the jersey should look like it's made of bandages, needs a snappier title though.
Crash Test dummy award, for most spectacular crash, jersey to be like Foska's crash test dummy one
Best domestique award,

I'd like all the power data collected and shared, then there could be an award for most energy expended. Jersey could be their normal jersey, but with a ready-brek style red glow around it.

Any others people would like to see awarded?
Best debut?
Best old rider?

Re: Has anyone ever won green and yellow in the TDF

22 July 2015 - 6:06pm
thirdcrank wrote: In short, although riders such as Merckx dominated their era, there was much less strong competition.

For most of his career Merkx was up against Roger De Vlaeminck in the classics. Look up the man's palmares and I think you'll find he's amongst the strongest competition any rider could face in them. Later on he was racing against Freddy Martens and earlier Rik Van Looy and Jaques Anquetil. Felice Gimondi was a constant throughout his career as was Poulidor - older but still capable of second place in the tour as late as 1974. Then there was Louis Ocana, not an easy man to beat. Joop Zoetemelk and Bernard Thevenet shouldn't be regarded as pushovers either.
If anything competition was probably stronger in Merckx's day than currently. As an example when he won the tour in 1972 the four riders just behind him in the GC were Felice Gimondi, Raymond Poulidor, Lucien Van Impe and Joop Zoetemelk. Three tour winners and the chap who probably holds the record for podium places without actually winning - not what I'd call easy opposition.

Re: Has anyone ever won green and yellow in the TDF

22 July 2015 - 4:44pm
Doping in sport is something I know little about, but IMO it's misleading to think of bike racing in the past in terms of what it's like now. Pro racing was largely restricted to France, Italy, Belgium and Spain, with some more from Holland, Germany and, of course Luxemburg. The amateur part of the sport was dominated by the Iron Curtain countries. The road calendar was a three season affair, with many riders having either a complete break in winter or doing a bit of cyclo-cross. As has been pointed out, some top roadmen were able to continue through the winter with 6 day (track racing) contracts.

The Paris-Nice stage race was generally regarded as a bit of a training run after the winter. Most of the classics, as now were held in the spring and then the Giro was mainly ridden by Italian riders followed a bit later by the TdeF which was a bit more cosmopolitan but still mainly home riders. In the days of national teams - which ended just before Merckx's career, there would be a French national team and several French regional teams. After the TdeF, French riders made their living riding the numerous local village races around-the-houses where each race organiser would pay appearance money for a few pro riders - recent success in the TdeF meaning more appearance money - and then was pretty much the World Championships - held a bit earlier in the year than now - and Tour of Lombardy, then bikes back away for the Winter.

All this meant that there were fewer truly strong riders and there was less specialisation. Obviously, there were sprinters, but not with entire teams forming a lead-out train. There were specialist climbers, too, but largely lightweights who could accelerate repeatedly. In the days when there was much less motorised technical support, domestiques were largely there to fetch and carry for the team leader, swapping wheels and even bikes with the team leader to a much greater extent than happens now. Some domestiques were not full-time riders. eg AFAIK, Roger Chaussabel, who was lanterne rouge in 1956 was also a part-time fireman. They would be expected to forage in roadside bars and cafés for cold drinks, especially in hot weather. In short, although riders such as Merckx dominated their era, there was much less strong competition. No modern rider could hope to dominate the sport in the way that Merckx did, even with rocket fuel: pro bike racing is now much more international, especially since the fall of the Iron Curtain, but television coverage has meant much more money, and more incentive for riders to ride hard throughout a race. Modern professionals are more .... professional.

Re: Has anyone ever won green and yellow in the TDF

22 July 2015 - 10:35am
thirdcrank wrote:For a couple of decades - 1968 to 1989 - there was also a combined classification for the rider doing best across the three other jersey classifications. It began as a white jersey but was changed to a sort of patchwork quilt of the yellow, green, and polka dot. Eddy Merckx won all four in 1969.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combinati ... _de_France

The diagram illustrating the combined jersey in that link also has a patch of red. At one time, they introduced an intermediate sprint competition separate from the green jersey which was recognised by the award of the red jersey.

Interesting link. Before this years TDF I didnt really understand the jersey qualifications. Have to say though after reading Walsh's book on Armstrong and the world of doping in cycling I'm really suspicious of Eddy Merckx's stunning three jersey win.

Re: Has anyone ever won green and yellow in the TDF

22 July 2015 - 6:47am
For a couple of decades - 1968 to 1989 - there was also a combined classification for the rider doing best across the three other jersey classifications. It began as a white jersey but was changed to a sort of patchwork quilt of the yellow, green, and polka dot. Eddy Merckx won all four in 1969.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combinati ... _de_France

The diagram illustrating the combined jersey in that link also has a patch of red. At one time, they introduced an intermediate sprint competition separate from the green jersey which was recognised by the award of the red jersey.

Re: Has anyone ever won green and yellow in the TDF

21 July 2015 - 11:43pm
ukdodger wrote:LollyKat wrote:And Merckx also won the King of the Mountains jersey in 1969 and 1970 - so in his first TdF he won all three jerseys

Wow. But with a performance like that you have to wonder about drugs. Doping was around long before testing.

And testing was around before Merckx. Remember he rode all year round spring classics, the stage races and finishing with the Tour of Lombardy before starting the winter 6 day track stuff. Winners and podium finishers tended to be tested and Merckx was almost always one of those.
Merckx also had a very bad track accident at Blois in the autumn of 69 damaging his pelvis and back so badly he was confined to bed for 6 weeks. By his own admission he was never as good a rider after the accident and in particular it affected his climbing. That may well be why he never again won all the jerseys in a single tour.

Re: Has anyone ever won green and yellow in the TDF

21 July 2015 - 11:32pm
Merckx's career was both long and consistent. His performances (even as an amateur) were just phenomenal. Back then, those things were not the hallmarks of a doper.

Merckx was found with dope in his system on just three occasions, despite many tests during his long career, during an era of -sometimes flagrant- drug abuse in sport. Of those three, only one lacks a reasonable explanation. I'm inclined to the view that amongst his peers, he was either much less likely to have doped, or (less likely IMHO) he had some special way of doping that was just way better than anyone else's, that he somehow used for about seventeen years.

cheers

Re: Has anyone ever won green and yellow in the TDF

21 July 2015 - 11:12pm
LollyKat wrote:And Merckx also won the King of the Mountains jersey in 1969 and 1970 - so in his first TdF he won all three jerseys

Wow. But with a performance like that you have to wonder about drugs. Doping was around long before testing.

Re: Has anyone ever won green and yellow in the TDF

21 July 2015 - 10:05pm
The green jersey is for points, and points are awarded in various ways, for stage finishes and for intermediate sprints. It is possible for a rider to win the points without winning a single stage.

The yellow is for general classification, i.e. total time, with the caveat that you get time bonuses (some years and not others) for finishing positions on each stage. It is quite possible to win the GC without winning a single stage.

1969 it was pretty much a clean sweep for Merckx; he won the mountains classification and the award for the most aggressive rider, as well as the GC and the points classification.

You can see his palmares (or highlights, anyway) here;

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eddy_Merckx

in the box at the top right of the page.

cheers

Re: Has anyone ever won green and yellow in the TDF

21 July 2015 - 10:01pm
And Merckx also won the King of the Mountains jersey in 1969 and 1970 - so in his first TdF he won all three jerseys

Re: Has anyone ever won green and yellow in the TDF

21 July 2015 - 9:52pm
ukdodger wrote:Brucey wrote:I think that both have been held by the same rider at the same time but perhaps not at the race finish*. I think the rider wears the yellow and the second place rider in the points gets to wear green.

* correction Merckx did it in '69, '71, '72. He did it in the Giro more than once too. Not 'the cannibal' for nothing....

cheers

I thought and I could be wrong that yellow is on time and green on points. So the most stage wins wins green and the shortest time overall wins yellow.

So Merckx did win both in the same race?

Re: Has anyone ever won green and yellow in the TDF

21 July 2015 - 9:51pm
Brucey wrote:I think that both have been held by the same rider at the same time but perhaps not at the race finish*. I think the rider wears the yellow and the second place rider in the points gets to wear green.

* correction Merckx did it in '69, '71, '72. He did it in the Giro more than once too. Not 'the cannibal' for nothing....

cheers

I thought and I could be wrong that yellow is on time and green on points. So the most stage wins wins green.

So Merckx did win both in the same race?

Re: Doping culture still exists.

21 July 2015 - 9:10pm
NATURAL ANKLING wrote:Hi,
http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/racing/t ... ion-183323

From the linked article:- Jalabert spoke to RTL radio after Froome’s victory to La Pierre-Saint-Martin on stage 10 of the Tour, saying that it was “surreal to see just how superior Froome is” and that his cadence was “so difficult to achieve that it leaves us speechless.” He also added that the large time gaps on
that stage between Froome and his rivals “made me feel a bit uncomfortable.”

There's another way to look at it, Nibali's team,are under close scrutiny,Astana is it seems are at the last chance saloon,Bertie and Valverde have both been on the naughty step once,a second infringement and they're both out on their ear,so it's possible they could be clean and not what they used to be because of that,though not forgetting Bertie won the Giro and could be suffering as a result.
TJ,has never looked convincing enough to beat Froome,IMO close but no cigar.
Quintana similarly,and both he and TJ are young.

Sky are noted for not over racing their riders and looking after their interests in their 'small gains' theory approach,which goes to extraordinary lengths,other teams are starting to get to grips with it but trailing Brailsford & Co,who still have head start.

Elsewhere in the article Jaja,says that his cadence was
“so difficult to achieve that it leaves us speechless.”
So what does he think,that he's perhaps had his legs wound up electronically?

Froome is a very confident and calculated rider with a very strong team around him,it's that calculation and level headedness as a roadracer,that sets him apart and above Wiggins IMO in the peloton's chaotic flux,Bertie is the same.

I think Froome's clean,and I think he's just the best at present.

Re: ITV4 Tour Coverage.

21 July 2015 - 9:01pm
commentators are guaranteed to wind you up eventually; I think it goes with the territory, esp on a long event like the TdF.

However, tonight's coverage was interesting.... they had a piece about doping allegations against CF, which I thought fair enough; that such allegations are being thrown about is a news story in itself. But then they had a piece about the stage route for tomorrow, which finishes at Pra Loup and of course they had a piece about the '75 tour stage there that decided the race.

The archive footage was interesting, and it was clear that Bernard Thevenet was still moved 40 years later to recall events that day. But to have such a piece in the same breath as doping allegations against current tour riders without accidentally on purpose mentioning that BT was a notorious drugs cheat is surely a case of double standards?

Thevenet is quite well written up here;

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernard_Th%C3%A9venet

and here in McGann's book

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=V8mlwItBhhcC&pg=PA110&dq=thevenet+drug&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CCAQ6AEwAGoVChMIyKCtxvzsxgIVxBo-Ch2TwwAR#v=onepage&q=thevenet%20drug&f=false

on p110 it is noted that the drugs tests and penalties (fines and stage relegations) were seemingly not administered fairly around that time.

Thevenet took so much cortisone (in the three years that included his two tour victories) that he damaged his liver....

and so it goes.... another TdF, another opportunity to set the record straight missed....

cheers

Re: Doping culture still exists.

21 July 2015 - 8:16pm
I wonder how team Sky appears to others? They might well seem to be bankrolled by one of the largest media organisations in the world, with enough money and clout to pull all kinds of strokes behind the scenes.

I don't think it is like that, I hope it isn't like that... but it might seem to be that way.

Froomy doesn't deserve to have cups of wee thrown over him though....

cheers

Re: T.D.F

21 July 2015 - 3:50pm
mig wrote:what happened to the days when teams who had yellow in their kit changed it for the tour to keep the yellow jersey noticeable? both lotto and tinkoff have yellow in their kit. bring back the old days!
The daft thing is, Lotto actually have changed their kit for the Tour. Some Tour official really should have said "nope, go back and try again"...

Re: T.D.F

21 July 2015 - 3:39pm
mig wrote:what happened to the days when teams who had yellow in their kit changed it for the tour to keep the yellow jersey noticeable? both lotto and tinkoff have yellow in their kit. bring back the old days!

I agree it can be confusing.
I remember ONCE having to change their kit to pink for the tour,and rightly so IMO,yellow is the leader no one in the race should be wearing it.

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