CTC Forum - Racing

Syndicate content
Discussion boards hosted by CTC, the national cycling charity
Updated: 1 hour 53 min ago

Re: Lance Armstrong on the BBC News

11 February 2015 - 9:28pm
Oh heck, I'm not getting at you, I'm just commenting on the bullying technique and how it can happen without knowing.
Your apol is accepted of course and I'm not labouring the point.
Sorry if I offended.

I was trying to say that LA may have bullied, but maybe no-one complained at the time because no-one realised they were being bullied.

Re: Lance Armstrong on the BBC News

11 February 2015 - 9:23pm
I think I've already apologized for this comment Mick.

Re: Lance Armstrong on the BBC News

11 February 2015 - 9:20pm
landsurfer wrote:......... ive never been bullied as an adult .....
People have tried but its not in my makeup to let it happen..... You need to define "adult".
I was bullied for much of my early service career and it didn't stop until I was nearly 30.
I didn't consider it bullying at the time - it's only in retrospect that I recognise it as such.

Maybe the other cyclists didn't realise they were being bullied by LA at the time, and only when questioned years later did they say the were.

Re: Lance Armstrong on the BBC News

11 February 2015 - 8:01pm
blackbike wrote:Bullying is what many people now call being asked to work hard and efficiently, and not to take lots of time off sick.
That isn't quite as crass as the OP's remark (for which I acknowledge, he/she has now apologised). However....

I've been luckier than some, I suppose - if you set aside a certain measure of internet bullying which I've put up with (and which this is not the place to go into). I had an 'episode' at work about 25 years ago - pre-internet. After having worked on design and development of a new product and having just demonstrated a prototype to my colleagues, I was called in by my then boss. He told me, my work was no good, he was going to have it re-developed from the bottom up, and intended to put someone else (one of his buddies from a previous employment) on the case. To say, I 'objected' to this turn of events, would be to put it mildly: I think the stream of F-words must have echoed throughout the entire building! Anyway I stormed out of this meeting, typed out a 'back me or sack me' letter to the MD, then next morning stalked into the said MD's office, plonked the letter on his desk, and awaited his reaction.

The upshot was that my 'boss' was shuffled sideways to a position where he didn't come into further contact with me, I was told to carry on with the project, and was appointed team leader. So it looks like I 'won' that one. A few months later the selfsame 'boss' resigned of his own accord, along with his buddy (or possibly they were 'pushed'). Another 'win'? And as a postscript, a few years later I suspected selfsame 'boss', now working for a competitor, of sabotaging some of our equipment on a customer's site - if true, a criminal act which could have put people's lives in jeopardy. I only had my suspicions, nothing to pin on this guy. Perhaps with hindsight, I ought to have alerted at least the directors, if not the Police, but I kept mum.

So who was the 'bully' in this sordid little anecdote? With hindsight, I have many regrets about what happened, despite the fact that I still think my antagonist was in the wrong. But it was a long time ago.

Perhaps it wasn't bullying in the strict sense of the word. But there was certainly bad blood all around. And I know others who have fared far worse at their workplaces. At least I escaped sexual harassment .

Re: Lance Armstrong on the BBC News

11 February 2015 - 5:30pm
blackbike wrote:Bullying is what many people now call being asked to work hard and efficiently, and not to take lots of time off sick.


Nope, not quite right, but it is what people who don't work very hard and have to be pushed, think.

I have worked very hard, putting in extra hours where needed to get the job done.This way of life suddenly became wrong with a change of management and was criticised (after 30-odd years of doing it). And no, this wasn't by Union reps or similar trying to maintain working practices and prevent other people looking bad, it was management deliberately marking down at review time to save money (and in one case to save them looking bad since I was "setting a precedent" and if I "carried on doing it then where would we be" I was told). That's a form of workplace bullying. Had I been in the voluntary sector at the time I would, as one correspondent has said, happily walked out and taken my talents elsewhere rather than what I was able do, which was to focus more effort on appearances for as long as necessary, at the expense of the work.

But bad as it was it was nothing compared to what Armstrong has done, or the impact it has had not just on other riders (perhaps forcing them to follow the drugs route simply to compete, at the expense of thier health and well-being), but on others who tried to blow the whistle. Given the money he's made, in other areas perhaps cheating is not as appropriate a word as Fraud.

Re-reading "It's not about the bike" knowing the truth - or rather what LA has not been able to hide - is quite interesting ad parts of itdo leave a feeling of nausea.

Re: Lance Armstrong on the BBC News

11 February 2015 - 5:29pm
blackbike wrote:Bullying is what many people now call being asked to work hard and efficiently, and not to take lots of time off sick.

Of course, this doesn't mean the word loses any of its older meanings, just that language evolves.
I think it is bullying to 'require' someone to work 55 hours per week and not otherwise compensate them when they are contracted to work 37,5. Even though it is common practice in some jobs in the UK.

Asking them to work hard? well, it depends on what kind of pressure is being put on them and what the job is. Your post sounds a bit dismissive, but I've seen the threat of dismissal be used to overwork people. Where do you draw the line? I don't know, but I've been treated badly enough at jobs to walk out. But that's harder when someone has a family depending on them. Or financial problems.

Re: Lance Armstrong on the BBC News

11 February 2015 - 5:20pm
I don't think anyone physically takes away the jerseys, they just declare them void of meaning. 1999 had no TdF winner, nor 2000, 2001........ There is no practical alternative, for reasons already outlined. Those races were so corrupted that a winner cannot be declared.

Re: Lance Armstrong on the BBC News

11 February 2015 - 4:30pm
Don't bother taking anyone's yellow or pink or whatever colour jersey away from them if you are not going to award it to the guy that came second ... or third ... or fourth ... or fifth ... etc. It looks stupid.

Re: Lance Armstrong on the BBC News

11 February 2015 - 4:04pm
Bullying is what many people now call being asked to work hard and efficiently, and not to take lots of time off sick.

Of course, this doesn't mean the word loses any of its older meanings, just that language evolves.

Re: Lance Armstrong on the BBC News

11 February 2015 - 3:09pm
landsurfer wrote:Somebody won those TDF's ... let the people of the time keep their jerseys ... but fill the gaps with real winners, ASO know who they are, have the balls to say it !!!

Impossible to do. Someone produced a list of the top ten in each of the Armstrong years marking those who had subsequently been done for doping. What was left was a very small and suspect list. For example the new winner for 1999 would be Fernando Escartin who came third in the original order. But Italian court documents from 2004 showed he had received PEDs from Ferrari. So was he clean or not in 1999? And the lower down the order you go the less focus there was on whether they doped or not so who knows who the "real winners" were.

Personally I think it should be all or nothing - blank years for every winner shown to have doped at some point or all allowed to keep their wins including Armstrong. At the moment its neither one or the other.

Re: Lance Armstrong on the BBC News

11 February 2015 - 2:55pm
Someone attempted to bully me as an adult. I was a volunteer on a committee whose chairperson wanted to surround himself with younger, more malleable people. He spread malicious lies about my behaviour. I tried very hard to put things right from inside the organisation, but I found that as a volunteer I had no rights, so I left. So did the other two older volunteers on the committee when he started on them. It rankled to admit defeat, but I wasn't going to put up with his behaviour, and had no other sanction open to me.
I was fortunate in that I could just walk away. So it definitely can happen to adults

Re: Lance Armstrong on the BBC News

11 February 2015 - 2:07pm
landsurfer

your gracious apology is accepted by me. By coincidence, last night my wife and I were discussing the case of someone we know who is being bullied by her manager who, we think, is trying to get her to leave. Armstrong's bullying was another example of work place bullying. He's a charmer, so he makes all the right noises having been caught, but I see him as he really is now. I don't care how good he was at pushing pedals around (with or without EPO). He was and is a very unpleasant person, not fit to be seen as a hero.

Re: Lance Armstrong on the BBC News

11 February 2015 - 1:56pm
Possibly because ive never been bullied as an adult .....
People have tried but its not in my makeup to let it happen.....
Maybe im just odd ...
Sorry if i have offended anyone.

Re: Lance Armstrong on the BBC News

11 February 2015 - 1:43pm
landsurfer wrote:but fill the gaps with real winners, ASO know who they are, have the balls to say it !!!
As LA said " no world war, so why the gap!"

Because it's just ridiculous to think we can identify the highest placed non-cheating cyclist, and that it has any meaning if we did so.

Let us suppose we get accurate testimony as to all the, say 60% (since use of drugs was probably widespread before the testing got more serious), of riders who cheated in 199x were, which in itself is utterly implausible, because in many cases it is only the rider themselves that knows, but let's suppose we do. The reason it's meaningless is a bit like why they play the point again in tennis, once the linesman's call is found to be wrong. Because once you've taken out all the cheats, the guy who came 37th didn't know he had a real chance of winning and thus didn't try to overtake the guy who came 33rd, because at the time it seemed like it hardly mattered.

Re: Lance Armstrong on the BBC News

11 February 2015 - 11:37am
landsurfer wrote:You cannot bully an adult .. I believe.


What?! You're not serious? If you are then that worries me on so many levels.

Re: Lance is trying to get the ban lifted

5 February 2015 - 9:09pm
Driving ban or cycling ban?

The **** should get banned from any further mention in any media after his recent vehicular antics.

Re: Lance is trying to get the ban lifted

5 February 2015 - 11:12am
Hi,
K_G wrote:Almost feels sorry for him now. Almost....
That's subtle sarcasm or are you serious ? if you are go watch the interview and see the old Lnace, he only wants to win.

Re: Lance is trying to get the ban lifted

5 February 2015 - 10:09am
Conviction for 'hit and run' in Colorado results in an automatic ban. However, they also have plea bargaining, so he may cut a deal that results in him pleading guilty for one or more lesser charges, instead.

Re: Lance is trying to get the ban lifted

5 February 2015 - 10:01am
Almost feels sorry for him now. Almost....

Re: Lance is trying to get the ban lifted

4 February 2015 - 12:44pm
julianm wrote:If you hadn't quite made up your mind about whether he is a cheating lying *** this might help you decide - he`s been charged with hit & run & got his girlfriend to take the blame ...
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/cycling/31125348
Does anyone who knows the local laws there expect this to result in a driving ban for Lance, in addition to possible fine and jail?

Archive

  • Patron: Her Majesty The Queen
  • President: Jon Snow
  • Chief Executive: Paul Tuohy
  • Cyclists' Touring Club (CTC): A company limited by guarantee, registered in England no.25185. Registered as a charity in England and Wales No 1147607 and in Scotland No SC042541

Copyright © CTC 2015

Terms and Conditions