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Re: Has anyone ever won green and yellow in the TDF

23 July 2015 - 10:49pm


this is what I was thinking of; thought it was in LCET but maybe I've not remembered correctly. I doubt that he 'accidentally trained like this on the off-chance that he might do the record'.... or 'accidentally had his 12-1/2lb bike built'.....so don't believe the hype/smoke/mirrors... it was surely all planned well in advance

cheers

Re: Has anyone ever won green and yellow in the TDF

23 July 2015 - 8:25pm
thirdcrank wrote:The only thing that brought me back, yet again, was being laid up with my Achilles the first year that Team Sky rode the TdeF. I'm clinging again to the belief that they are kosher. I look to Chris Boardman's comments here, because he had a reputation of being clean. Perhaps I'm naïve.



Maybe but I've always doubts about anyone and anything tainted by association with Rupert Murdoch......

Re: Has anyone ever won green and yellow in the TDF

23 July 2015 - 7:41pm
pete75 wrote: ... Yep and we all know what scientific advances is a euphemism for.

That's not what I meant, but it is obviously true that doping has become more sophisticated over the years, both in the substances used and the race to keep ahead of detection. A lot of the scope for rumour-mongering comes from the possibility that we can't be sure what's happening and beyond that, there's been the suspicion that blind eyes have been turned. But those doubts have always been there. I've been a Pangloss in the past and then been disappointed by new revelations more than once. EPO was a particular disappointment for me, because it seemed to be the first thing that would inevitably give a cheat an edge over a clean rider, while wrecking the health of those who took it.

My early info came from Coureur and the comic: cycling was rarely on the box. Eurosport was an eye-opener for me and I spent a lot of time enjoying the luxury of all that live coverage, with or without Duffers. But several times after more revelations, I've said "That's it, no more watching cycle racing." But I've been tempted back. In the early days of the the ITV4 coverage (I think) I was channel hopping before going to be and I came across Phil and Paul, and Floyd Landis was on a ride. In no time at all he'd been outed as a cheat. Longer term forum members may remember somebody (gar?) defending him against allegations by referring to his strict religious upbringing in the US outback.

The only thing that brought me back, yet again, was being laid up with my Achilles the first year that Team Sky rode the TdeF. I'm clinging again to the belief that they are kosher. I look to Chris Boardman's comments here, because he had a reputation of being clean. Perhaps I'm naïve.

As an aside, the human memory is a wonderful thing and us oldies can help a younger generation with appropriate advice and trips down memory lane, but the rose-tinted specs are best put away. (Or worn on the back of the head like the obligatory sunspecs. It would have the benefit of reminding us that we are looking backwards with them. )

Re: Has anyone ever won green and yellow in the TDF

23 July 2015 - 5:36pm
thirdcrank wrote:
None of that detracts from what I'm saying which is that there is now a bigger pool of competitors many benefiting from scientific advances eg the Team Sky programme.



Yep and we all know what scientific advances is a euphemism for.

Re: Has anyone ever won green and yellow in the TDF

23 July 2015 - 5:11pm
I obviously didn't know about the gas mask thing: the wide-eyed wonder at the time was that he had (apparently) managed to break the record without acclimatisation. I'm pretty sure that the source for that at the time was in JB Wadley's Coureur The magazine for the sporting cyclist.

It brings to mind another hero of those now far-off times, Don Thompson who won the gold medal in the 50km walk at the Rome Olympics after training himself to cope with the expected heat and humidity by stepping on and off his bathroom stool with the windows closed, heating on and an electric kettle steaming away as well. No Lottery Funding for him.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don_Thompson_(athlete)

None of that detracts from what I'm saying which is that there is now a bigger pool of competitors many benefiting from scientific advances eg the Team Sky programme.

On the "knowing how to suffer" theme, anybody reading my posts of a few years ago will see that I believed that the excruciating cancer treatment had taught Lance Armstrong how to suffer.

Another star of an earlier age I've mentioned before in my ramblings was Eugene Christophe, patron saint of toeclips (toe clips? what are they, some will ask.) He lost hours (and the jersey) when he ran down the Tourmalet to a blacksmith's forge and was penaiised a further minute for recruiting a child to pump the bellows. Could any modern rider do that? Probably not because I don't think you can braze carbon fibre. As has already been pointed out, you can't compare sprortsmen across the generations. I picked the word carefully when I described Merckx as a colossus.

Re: Has anyone ever won green and yellow in the TDF

23 July 2015 - 4:48pm
Brucey wrote:thirdcrank wrote: ....Merckx rode everything and won much of it from Milan - San Remo to the Tour of Lombardy and competed on the track in winter, also finding time to nip off to Mexico at take the hour record without spending the usual time acclimatising to riding at altitude.....

Merckx spent months training specifically for the record attempt. In his basement at home in Belgium he had what looked to me (and in fact had the effect of being) some kind of ghastly torture apparatus. The apparatus had Merckx training on the rollers with a kind of gas mask on, which was fed via a pipe that led from a unit that extracted a proportion of the atmospheric oxygen, thus simulating the effects of altitude.

He trained regularly on this apparatus prior to his record attempt. If you watch 'La Course En Tete' there is footage of him training this way. He looked to me to be in a worse state than at any other time in his career with the possible exception of the record ride itself, and I guess that would have been every day, or every other day at least, for months. It takes real willpower to do that.

Merckx was a phenomenon; an exemplar of the 'first you learn to ride, then you learn to suffer; if you don't learn to suffer, you will never win' school of thought.

cheers

Not according to this http://bikeraceinfo.com/riderhistories/ ... ecord.html which says he didn't decide to go for the record until August 1972 and didn't choose Mexico until after a visit to the Vigorelli on October 12th. The record was set on 25th October which didn't leave much time for preparation.
In my version of 'La Course En Tete' he's shown training on rollers but not wearing a mask.

Re: ITV4 Tour Coverage.

23 July 2015 - 3:09pm
They talked about Contador's mechanical problem for quite a while yesterday when it was clear he had fallen and been given Sagan's bike. Even when they showed his bloodied forearm they were still blathering on about it being a no fault of his own mechanical incident.

Re: Has anyone ever won green and yellow in the TDF

23 July 2015 - 3:01pm
thirdcrank wrote: ....Merckx rode everything and won much of it from Milan - San Remo to the Tour of Lombardy and competed on the track in winter, also finding time to nip off to Mexico at take the hour record without spending the usual time acclimatising to riding at altitude.....

Merckx spent months training specifically for the record attempt. In his basement at home in Belgium he had what looked to me (and in fact had the effect of being) some kind of ghastly torture apparatus. The apparatus had Merckx training on the rollers with a kind of gas mask on, which was fed via a pipe that led from a unit that extracted a proportion of the atmospheric oxygen, thus simulating the effects of altitude.

He trained regularly on this apparatus prior to his record attempt. If you watch 'La Course En Tete' there is footage of him training this way. He looked to me to be in a worse state than at any other time in his career with the possible exception of the record ride itself, and I guess that would have been every day, or every other day at least, for months. It takes real willpower to do that.

Merckx was a phenomenon; an exemplar of the 'first you learn to ride, then you learn to suffer; if you don't learn to suffer, you will never win' school of thought.

cheers

Re: Has anyone ever won green and yellow in the TDF

23 July 2015 - 2:12pm
ukdodger wrote:I'm wondering what possible motor you could fix to a racing bike.

There was an interesting discussion on R4 this morning about allegations against Froome and as was said after Armstrong doping allegations are not going to go away and those accused will never conclusively be able to prove their innocence.

The stuff about Froome now is very like what people were saying about Armstrong round about 2001. Maybe we'll have to wait another 13 years for the truth to come out.

Re: ITV4 Tour Coverage. Thibaut Pinot

23 July 2015 - 12:34pm
Thibaut Pinot came off (again) yesterday, as he exited a tight turn on a descent (from the Col d'Allos, I think). On the commentary they talked about the state of the road surface, that 'he'd skidded', Pinot's mental state, the fact that he had been practicing driving racing cars to improve his technique ... . They talked about a lot of things....

And it was all guff; he just started to pedal again too early, and grounded his pedal on the road. It was very clear from how he fell. Rookie mistake from him, rookie mistake from the bloke that designed his bike and gave him those ridiculous sticky-out pedals ( I don' know what sort they are exactly), rookie mistake from the commentary team, and one they didn't bother to correct in their highlights show.

D'uh...

cheers

Re: Has anyone ever won green and yellow in the TDF

23 July 2015 - 11:35am
I'm wondering what possible motor you could fix to a racing bike.

There was an interesting discussion on R4 this morning about allegations against Froome and as was said after Armstrong doping allegations are not going to go away and those accused will never conclusively be able to prove their innocence.

Re: ITV4 Tour Coverage.

23 July 2015 - 11:23am
Reohn2 if you spend the £7.50 and use it on your bald acreage then you'll have hair like rapunzel in no time . Like Thirdcrank I'm lucky in that I can skip the adverts and the competition where most of the blurb is rhyming off all the T's and C's and call costs. Overall it makes a 4hr show( it's still cutting off early in my recordings ) about 2.5hrs. Not sure on Chris and Neds TDF questions lead in why they're shown manically laughing on the animation, I don't really get that bit as its not a comedy short..... though sadly the producers seem to make them put some low rent humour in there.

Re: Has anyone ever won green and yellow in the TDF

23 July 2015 - 10:10am
I'll try and put it another way.

Chris Froome beats the competition decisively, but by what would have been a narrow margin in some previous eras. This is after his entire season has been targeted on preparation for this one race. Dr Salaud, or whatever they call him, suggests among other possibilities that he may have some sort of motor fitted, even though on one stage, all the Team Sky bikes were seized by what Phil and Paul call the referees to be checked for just such gadgets, when none was found.

Earlier on this thread, it was suggested that Eddy Merckx dominance of the TdeF must be suspect. Anybody familiar with Merckx's era knows that he was a colossus. On yesterday's ITV4 coverage, there was a big banner at the roadside congratulating Thevenet as "Le tombeur de Merckx." ie his win was important for having brought down that rider. As has been noted, Merckx road everything and won much of it from Milan - San Remo to the Tour of Lombardy and competed on the track in winter, also finding time to nip off to Mexico at take the hour record without spending the usual time acclimatising to riding at altitude.

The sport is much bigger now with riders from many more countries and most trained to a much higher level. One of the biggest differences is that every rider in a race like the TdeF is a strong rider and today's team leaders get much more support than used to be the case from strong riders who might be good enough to star were they not riding in a support role.

I've probably posted before that a couple of years ago, when the media were beginning to cover the TdeF coming to Yorkshire, Brian Robinson was interviewed on what passes for the regional news, Look North We saw some library footage of the race in his heyday and it certainly looked tough. Given the opportunity to come the old soldier, he described conditions in his era as "rustic" and laughed as he said it. One of his stage victories was by some 20 minutes: a promenade stage when the whole field was happy to let him go. The prestige of a stage win today is such that there are no easy days.

All I'm saying is that no individual could dominate the sport today as Merckx and others did in the past. The competition in depth is stronger.

Re: Has anyone ever won green and yellow in the TDF

23 July 2015 - 2:14am
All this discussion reminds me of when Cassius Clay first arrived on the scene and was clobbering everybody. There would be heated discussions over whether he was better than Rocky Marciano. And it's about as fruitful.

Re: Tour rules

23 July 2015 - 2:00am
That makes sense. Thanks.

Re: ITV4 Tour Coverage.

22 July 2015 - 11:15pm
thirdcrank wrote:........ I saw a lot of publicity for Alpecin who are sponsoring one of the teams in the TdeF.

I saw some of that in (in)Sainsbury's yesterday,it was £7.50 a pop
Glad I'm bald!

Re: ITV4 Tour Coverage.

22 July 2015 - 10:34pm
I record it on a hard drive recorder then skip through the ads: five presses of the +60 seconds button works a treat unless it's competition time when it needs an extra 60 seconds. I see few of the ads so I don't know what they are selling, but I can appreciate a company connected with cycling not wanting to upset cyclists with ads interfering with their viewing. I watched some of the Spring classics on my son's Sky (Eurosport) and I didn't know how to skip the ads so I saw a lot of publicity for Alpecin who are sponsoring one of the teams in the TdeF.

Re: ITV4 Tour Coverage.

22 July 2015 - 10:05pm
Ray wrote:Or am I missing something?
A lot of the adverts, especially during the live show, are the sorts of adverts that block-buy advertising space on itv4 and can be seen in any old programme on there. It says more about itv's ad sales tactics than it does about whether cycling itself is big business.

Halfodds seem absent this year. I think even the wiggle advert was more common during the Tour of Yorkshire and Dauphiné than it has been during TdF coverage - but I'm not 100% sure because I also mute the adverts, although for me it's because they're something like 30% louder than the show. Broadcasters and advertisers still haven't realised that screaming at viewers is a good way to get the adverts muted and something else looked at for three minutes.

Re: ITV4 Tour Coverage.

22 July 2015 - 10:01pm
I've missed them all usually at a X12 speed.
I think the only thing I've noticed is Alpecin and wonder why anyone needs caffeine in their shampoo.

Re: Tour rules

22 July 2015 - 9:47pm
I understand that he would need to take his old bike with him and hand it to the mechanic in exchange for the new bike.

I have a friend who was riding a time trial, punctured 200 yards from the finish and ran to the line but didn't get a time because he didn't take his bike with him. Different rules (CTT) but I think the principal is the same.

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