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Re: Has anyone ever won green and yellow in the TDF

30 July 2015 - 4:57pm
ukdodger wrote:Brucey wrote:I think that both have been held by the same rider at the same time but perhaps not at the race finish*. I think the rider wears the yellow and the second place rider in the points gets to wear green.

* correction Merckx did it in '69, '71, '72. He did it in the Giro more than once too. Not 'the cannibal' for nothing....

cheers

I thought and I could be wrong that yellow is on time and green on points. So the most stage wins wins green.

So Merckx did win both in the same race?

Yellow is overall leader so even if you are also the current sprint king/hill climb leader you wear yellow and the second place in the sprint/hill climb wears that jersey.

Yellow for overall
Green for sprint
Hill climb often red polka dot but I have seen it be red in some races.
There can also be highest placed amateur/highest placed junior, even highest placed Asian in Le Tour de Langkawi. Races in many countries have variations but in international races UCI must sanction them.

Re: ITV4 Tour Coverage.

28 July 2015 - 6:41pm
The two pc's on itv4 are awful these days.....

Oh for David Harmon from eurosport

Re: Britain's greatest....

27 July 2015 - 5:58pm
no mention of quite a few...in fact anyone from MTBing, BMXing, etc etc where we have had many world class cyclists who have won multiple world champs. IF it was only for roadies then fair enough but they manage to get track riders in there.

Re: Britain's greatest....

27 July 2015 - 12:00pm
& no mention of Graeme Obree at all!

Britain's greatest....

27 July 2015 - 9:18am
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/cycling/33663653

Slightly disappointed not to see Tommy Godwin, but not sure who I'd displace...

Re: Has anyone ever won green and yellow in the TDF

24 July 2015 - 11:29pm
According to William Fotheringham in his well researched book Merckx underwent physiological tests at the university of Liege and then in Milan with a Professor Ceretelli who knew quite a bit about high altitude stuff because of his work with K2 climbers. The Ceretelli tests took place on 12th October according to Daniel Friebe in his biography of Merkx. After the Milan tests a decision was made for Merckx to do hypoxic training on rollers in between races - so it seems the altitude training did not go on for a long period.
Tests were done using a pulse monitor with Merckx breathing an air mixture equivalent to 3,600 metres of altitude. Apparently after 4 days of this his heart rate would fall from over 150 to under 100 within 60 seconds impressing Ceretelli with the rapid rate of recovery.
Everything I've heard or read about this mentions the relatively short period he spent acclimatising to the Mexico City altitude.

Re: Tour rules

24 July 2015 - 8:56pm
Would he have to take the whole bike with him?

Re: ITV4 Tour Coverage.

24 July 2015 - 3:01pm
Every move is a "good move by X" even when X is brought back within 100m.

Re: ITV4 Tour Coverage.

24 July 2015 - 2:11pm
Spinners wrote: ... Great link! Cav, Griepel and Porte are in the bus.

If you have not done so already, scroll down and you will see the "virtual" GC ie the GC as it stands at the moment. No big deal when all the top riders are together but if anybody significant breaks away or is dropped, it's a quick reference to the effect it would have If there was no regrouping before the finish. Also, once the stage is over, that page shows all the full classifications: GC, mountains, points, young rider and "combativité" and, of course the full classification for the days stage, as well as abandons and the like. Some of the language is a bit strange eg "teaser" when we might expect "preview" but no big deal.

Those details for earlier stages are archived on there under the date. Dig a bit deeper and tourist info about places along the route are there as well.

Re: Has anyone ever won green and yellow in the TDF

24 July 2015 - 1:55pm
that is quite funny!

But I feel I should point out that the effects of altitude and altitude acclimatisation were quite well understood even in 1972. Decades of expeditions to the Himalayas (which in the case of the British ones had a high scientific content) meant that there was a lot of information available.

Although there are some shorter term effects it is now understood that full acclimatisation (including the really beneficial red blood cell increases) normally takes about 11 or 12 days per 1000m of height gain, and varies with the individual in both rate and extent. They would perhaps not have known an exact number back then but no-one would have thought that it could be done very quickly.

Mexico city is ~2200m above sea level (higher than many of the alpine passes used in the TdeF) so full acclimatisation would take about 25 days under normal circumstances.

BTW I am not dismissing the notion that use of this apparatus had been going on for some time and that this was in fact Eddy's 'secret weapon' that made him dominant in the way he was. IIRC Wiggo trained in a comparable way before his successful TdeF campaign, even sleeping in a reduced oxygen environment.

cheers

Re: ITV4 Tour Coverage.

24 July 2015 - 1:44pm
thirdcrank wrote:
http://www.letour.com/us/



Great link! Cav, Griepel and Porte are in the bus.

Re: Has anyone ever won green and yellow in the TDF

24 July 2015 - 1:08pm
Brucey wrote: ... For the low-oxygen training to have been any real use, he would have to have done it for weeks not days. ...

Without commenting on this exchange, its subject does illustrate a point I've been trying to make which is that modern training methods, helped by things like Lottery Funding are so much more scientific.

A former colleague was a pretty good distance runner and he told me a tale about an Iron Curtain athlete from the days when they were all "amateurs" holding senior rank in the Soviet armed forces. I think he may have been talking about Emile Zatopek. This also concerned training with a restricted oxygen supply, presumably to mimic the effects of training at altitude. Anyway, the story was that he used to hold his breath while training, but part of that training involved marching out of the barracks in the full uniform of a Red Army colonel or whatever and seeing how far he could march before he fainted.

This probably also comes under "learning how to suffer."

Re: ITV4 Tour Coverage.

24 July 2015 - 12:50pm
The commentators are sitting in front of a telly seeing the same pictures as the rest of us. In addition, they have race radio which used to be and AFAIK, still is, a series of the barest announcements of incidents: the rider's number + eg puncture. This was where Duffers had problems because it's all in French and the only word he seemed to know was Chapeau!

There's now a computerised feed which is available on the US version in English:

http://www.letour.com/us/

That's particularly useful for things like the details of who's in a breakaway and the time gaps.

Watching telly with the sound off and that on, you wouldn't miss much of the action.
================================================
PS Anybody who can't bear to miss a moment can even keep up-to-date during the ads.

Re: Has anyone ever won green and yellow in the TDF

24 July 2015 - 11:23am
pete75 wrote: I'm not trying to say that , the Bike race info website is..... Info on a website like that is more likely to be correct than....

even if it makes no sense at all...?

For the low-oxygen training to have been any real use, he would have to have done it for weeks not days.

cheers

Re: Has anyone ever won green and yellow in the TDF

24 July 2015 - 11:09am
Brucey wrote:if you are trying to say that he acquired the apparatus, managed to do useful training with it, and then travelled to Mexico, all inside two weeks, then I'm sorry , I just don't buy it. It is almost certainly spin intended to make his record look even more remarkable. His trip to Vigorelli would have been at the behest of his Italian sponsors, to gain publicity, and would have been carried out even if he had no intention of riding there.

Look at it this way; Merckx had just dominated professional cycle sport (in a number of disciplines) for the previous four years or so, in a way that no-one had before and probably never will do again. So if he had been seen to train hard and then set a new record, no-one would have been the slightest bit surprised. 'Best cyclist in the world does best ride after careful preparation' isn't exactly a shocking headline, is it? No wonder then that they dressed it up for the crowds. It wouldn't be the first time that a professional cyclist has, erm, 'managed the public's expectations' and it won't be the last.

cheers

I'm not trying to say that , the Bike race info website is. It seems well researched and even has many interviews with riders from the past. Info on a website like that is more likely to be correct than the postings of random individuals on a web forum.

Re: ITV4 Tour Coverage. Thibaut Pinot

24 July 2015 - 10:19am
Tonyf33 wrote:Yet the mighty Contador makes a rookie error on what wasn't a difficult corner (similar to the one were he snapped his leg in a trillion places places last year and recovered in two weeks ) it's like everyone is trying to cover it up???
Ah, another curse of the commentators - poor pictures means little for them to talk about. I also think there's still a bit of embarrassment and uncertainty about "Beefy" Contador and they're quite happy not to talk about him this year.

About Froome's bike handling (as if - he started off on far worse roads), I think P+P sometimes get into a bit of a feedback loop, each agreeing with each other and entrenching a mistake.

I like Eurosport's Karsten Migels, but it's nice to watch a race with English commentary sometimes I can't stand their English commentary team but I don't think they're currently available free-to-air anyway. But it could be worse: we could have France 2's dopey team.

Re: ITV4 Tour Coverage.

24 July 2015 - 9:47am
I watch it on Eurosport,much better,Carlton Kirby is entertaining and insightful,Sean Kelly likewise if only for his quirky Irish/English,which I don't mind a bit,one thing about Kelly,if he doesnt understand a tactic he's honest enough to admit it which is a breath of fresh air IMO.
Juan Antonio Flecha's insight,tech spec reports and bright disposition always cheers me up,more so Mrs R2
We skip through LeMond/House bits and the Adverts

Re: Has anyone ever won green and yellow in the TDF

24 July 2015 - 9:04am
if you are trying to say that he acquired the apparatus, managed to do useful training with it, and then travelled to Mexico, all inside two weeks, then I'm sorry , I just don't buy it. It is almost certainly spin intended to make his record look even more remarkable. His trip to Vigorelli would have been at the behest of his Italian sponsors, to gain publicity, and would have been carried out even if he had no intention of riding there.

Look at it this way; Merckx had just dominated professional cycle sport (in a number of disciplines) for the previous four years or so, in a way that no-one had before and probably never will do again. So if he had been seen to train hard and then set a new record, no-one would have been the slightest bit surprised. 'Best cyclist in the world does best ride after careful preparation' isn't exactly a shocking headline, is it? No wonder then that they dressed it up for the crowds. It wouldn't be the first time that a professional cyclist has, erm, 'managed the public's expectations' and it won't be the last.

cheers

Re: Has anyone ever won green and yellow in the TDF

24 July 2015 - 12:47am
Brucey wrote:

this is what I was thinking of; thought it was in LCET but maybe I've not remembered correctly. I doubt that he 'accidentally trained like this on the off-chance that he might do the record'.... or 'accidentally had his 12-1/2lb bike built'.....so don't believe the hype/smoke/mirrors... it was surely all planned well in advance

cheers

Oh it was all done very quickly after he decided to go to Mexico http://bikeraceinfo.com/riderhistories/ ... ecord.html

"The Vigorelli was attractive because it involved little travel, would allow direct comparison with all but two previous Hour record holders going back to 1935, and would more readily satisfy the publicity demands of his Italian sponsors, notably Molteni sausages. But a trip to the Vigorelli on October 12 was disappointing. Days of rain left the track saturated and unfit for cycling.

Immediately Eddy began to think of Mexico. There were three principal reasons against such a trip and one for it. 1) He was well aware of Ferdinand Bracke's disasterous attempt in Mexico in 1969. Bracke had set the record in 1967 and this was his attempt to retake it from Ritter, but the thin air asphyxiated him. Eddy's solution was to ride a home trainer every day while hooked up to an air mixture equivalent to Mexico City."

Re: ITV4 Tour Coverage. Thibaut Pinot

24 July 2015 - 12:36am
Brucey wrote:Thibaut Pinot came off (again) yesterday, as he exited a tight turn on a descent (from the Col d'Allos, I think). On the commentary they talked about the state of the road surface, that 'he'd skidded', Pinot's mental state, the fact that he had been practicing driving racing cars to improve his technique ... . They talked about a lot of things....

And it was all guff; he just started to pedal again too early, and grounded his pedal on the road. It was very clear from how he fell. Rookie mistake from him, rookie mistake from the bloke that designed his bike and gave him those ridiculous sticky-out pedals ( I don' know what sort they are exactly), rookie mistake from the commentary team, and one they didn't bother to correct in their highlights show.

D'uh...

cheers
quite, the two Ps are so far off the pace now (Sherwin more so IMO) that it's embarrassing. he (Sherwin) continued to tell us how Pinot was going to be more nervous going down the descent and that he wasn't a good descender anyway & more riders were passing him etc, yet the grand total of 2 riders went past I think & Uran Uran (a very good descender according to Sherwin) only gained a handful of seconds come the bottom of the descent.

He constantly banged on about Valverde & Nibali being superior descenders yet they gained absolutely nothing on Froome, Thomas and a few others whilst Froome is mentioned (though less so this tour) as being an iffy bike handler on the back of a couple of offs (none of which I seem to recall were his fault) Yet the mighty Contador makes a rookie error on what wasn't a difficult corner (similar to the one were he snapped his leg in a trillion places places last year and recovered in two weeks ) it's like everyone is trying to cover it up???

I've started watching it with the commentary off it's getting so unbearable with his "XX years of age" for almost every bloody rider.
The poor commentators are the ones that repeat themselves and use the same well worn phrase to describe X, there's an athletics tator whom describes everything from the field events as "massive", he just couldn't find any other descriptive for a good effort no matter what the event My favoured sport rugby league has Mike 'Stevo' Stephenson as the lead on SKY, an ex international he's one dimensional and has his awful catchphrases/words repeated and repeated again and again along with his with his quite horrendous errors calling the game anyway. The whole dynamic is a mess, at least P&P have some semblence of order but that's about it.

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