CTC Forum - On the road

Syndicate content
Discussion boards hosted by CTC, the national cycling charity
Updated: 1 hour 54 min ago

Re: With double give ways who gives way?

15 May 2015 - 11:24pm
This is a segregated cycle lane alongside the Chester Road and is in effect part of that road. As such the give way markings on the cycle path are absurd and need to be removed and there shouldn't be a break in the grey surfacing. Traffic in Great Jackson Street should be giving way to all traffic including cycles using Chester Road. That won't help the OP though, but somehow pressure needs to be put on the council responsible to rectify this.

Re: With double give ways who gives way?

15 May 2015 - 11:18pm
Awww and we so nearly got to two pages before someone posted an out of touch comment about staying on the road. I'm sure that would help because it's not like any motorist ever pulls out of a side road across a give way line and into a bike

Re: Caution Cyclists Signs

15 May 2015 - 10:36pm
gaz wrote:DSCN0902a.jpg
I think this is the sort of thing that the OP came across. There's some small print stating it will be in place for a maximum of 72 hours, but I've got no idea when it went up. As for attaching it to a traffic light .Well yes except the signs were at various places, sometimes on straight pieces of road eg A22 and the wording was simply "Caution Cyclists without anything else, and they were temporary. However if I cycle down the same road, as I did today, there isn't a sign, even though motorists should use still use caution for cyclists. I suppose my point is that do these temporary signs lull motorists into thinking there might be cyclists only when they see signs, and therefore should these signs be used at all?

Re: With double give ways who gives way?

15 May 2015 - 10:02pm
I hope she is ok? any injuries?
Looking at the photo, I would have ignored the "cycle lane" and stayed on the main road. Middle lane for straight on if that was her direction.
It's all too easy to feel safe in a cycle lane, lanes around my neck of the woods cross junctions like this.
She is allowed to ride in the road, can you ride with her to offer some confidence a few times? what cycle experience do you have?
HTH
Edit, just read the "out of action, day off work" comment
If she needs to cycle to work, a "mangled bike" is a problem.
Glad it doesn't sound bad.
Bad road layout and markings.

Re: how to communicate with "imprisoned" drivers?

15 May 2015 - 9:31pm
When I see a vehicle with heavily tinted windows I always make a point of staring hard with an incredulous and mocking expression as if I can see them perfectly clearly. It is rather hard to continue to believe in ones own invisibility when subjected to the 'Paddington stare'. Childish of me I know, but it amuses me to think of them suddenly feeling all exposed, going home, getting out of the vehicle and staring worriedly at the glass from various angles . . .

Re: Would you have said something?

15 May 2015 - 9:11pm
Hi,
I did say drift and crawl............where's the 30 MPH.

Remarks like these belong to the car drivers who retort at the frustration of innocent cyclist............................................

Re: Would you have said something?

15 May 2015 - 9:06pm
NATURAL ANKLING wrote:Hi,
So all you Psychology lot can get your minds around this one.

Coming home today on bike, narrow lane opening into a wider lane, but safe for two cars to pass.

Up hill so a bit slow and car comes into view coming towards me.
The car is in the middle of road and now appears to be drifting towards me Approximately 10 - 15 yards between us.
At about 5 yards the car now going to hit me and swerves back to middle of road.
At same time I slow up and get ready to dive out of the path of the car.
The car stops as I draw up to open window and me now crawling dead slow, the driver has hand on mobile and drops it and says camly "Sorry Mate"


[psychology] At 30mph it's 15 yards a second, at 15mph half that. I think you were misjudging your distances quite badly[/psychology]

Re: Caution Cyclists Signs

15 May 2015 - 9:05pm
Hi,
Suck on this -
http://www.nidirect.gov.uk/204-225-road ... extra-care
2015-05-15_205444.jpg

Saw these (Green Sign Only) on the approach ROAD to the cycle bridge (yet to open, was tempted to try it today ) its a road and the text in pic says "Whole Road" children playing or community event

Not sure a Road should be graded that way.

I use this road several times a week and there are nutters frequenting here in cars and vans, do you think they read..............

Re: With double give ways who gives way?

15 May 2015 - 8:48pm
Pete Owens wrote:In the case the police were correct - both vehicles had proceded through the give way markings so both were at fault.

This can't be right. Any collision at that location would by definition have to involve both vehicles having proceeded past the markings, yet it's a step too far to say that this necessarily means that both drivers/riders would be at fault.

There is a question of who should have given way to whom, and there are a number of considerations relevant to this:

-If one vehicle hits the side of the other vehicle, at least at this sort of location, fault is more likely to lie with the vehicle doing the hitting. That's because the vehicle getting hit is the one which reached the point of collision first, and the operator of the vehicle doing the hitting is better placed to avoid it.
-If the markings are ambiguous (both, or neither, give way) then it makes sense that the first vehicle to the junction should normally take priority.
-Depending on the exact timings, eye contact and negotiation may be helpful. If both vehicles stopped to give way, both users made eye contact and then each mistakenly thought that the other was ceding priority, then it may be difficult to apportion blame in any way other than 50/50 (or 0/0, in other words, an 'accident').
-When joining the major road from the minor road at a T junction, you would normally expect to give way to traffic proceeding along the major road. This would include checking for any traffic on the footway (whether pedestrian, cycle or otherwise) and giving way where that traffic has started to cross (or, in the case of a cyclist, has reached the point of no return on the approach to the crossing)

Also, bear in mind that the test in law is whether the parties were negligent. It is right and proper to take into account all the circumstances, including compliance with the highway code and road markings etc., but non-compliance with any of these does not automatically establish negligence.

Visibility looks pretty good at the junction in question (for a motorist emerging from the side road), and it is hard to see how a properly observant driver could be blameless for driving into the side of a cyclist.

Maybe I've missed it, but I can't see which direction the cyclist was travelling. If against the flow of the main carriageway, then I'd exercise extreme caution as the likelihood is that the average driver will look right but not left when joining the main carriageway. But even then, the driver would be most likely at fault for hitting someone -- a careful driver will always make visual checks in both directions even when joining what they know or believe to be a one-way carriageway -- partly because footway traffic is always two-way, and partly because people sometimes drive/cycle the wrong way on a one-way carriageway.

Re: Caution Cyclists Signs

15 May 2015 - 8:44pm
SA_SA_SA wrote:Re the dual carriage way crossing:

Worse, isn't two warning signs on the same post going to cause cognitive overload in a moton brain?

Its like that philosopher that went mad because he saw a horse get whipped. It fits into most people's reality, but that day, not his.

Re: Would you have said something?

15 May 2015 - 8:44pm
Hi,
So all you Psychology lot can get your minds around this one.

Coming home today on bike, narrow lane opening into a wider lane, but safe for two cars to pass.

Up hill so a bit slow and car comes into view coming towards me.
The car is in the middle of road and now appears to be drifting towards me Approximately 10 - 15 yards between us.
At about 5 yards the car now going to hit me and swerves back to middle of road.
At same time I slow up and get ready to dive out of the path of the car.
The car stops as I draw up to open window and me now crawling dead slow, the driver has hand on mobile and drops it and says camly "Sorry Mate"

I drift on by, past car and then say camly "You Know That's Illegal"

The car drifted down the road at a crawl and no doubt in my mind they picked up the mobile again.

No seat belt on either.

The car is a "car derived van"..................a SKY vehicle, I would complain but it appears that on sky customers can do that.

Re: Caution Cyclists Signs

15 May 2015 - 8:23pm
Re the dual carriage way crossing:

Worse, isn't two warning signs on the same post going to cause cognitive overload in a moton brain?

Re: With double give ways who gives way?

15 May 2015 - 8:18pm
Ellieb wrote:If the car hit the side of the bike then it implies to me that the bike had gone through the Give Way lines whilst the way ahead was clear. The car passed through the Give Way lines when there was something ahead they should have given way to = car at fault.....
I agree.

I think the road (vertical arm of T) should have a stop sign: it is possible the driver was not expecting a 2 way cycle way and approached the Give way at their normal (i.e. too) fast (of course ) speed; a Stop sign would at least have made them more likely to stop and then the cycleway/ any warning sign would be more easily noticed.

If it was meant to be a US style allway stop it would have 2 stop signs not 2 give way signs!

I am very dubious about roadside bi directional way cycle ways for travelling the "wrong way": much checking required....

Re: how to communicate with "imprisoned" drivers?

15 May 2015 - 7:58pm
I suggest this isn't a case of tinted glass, but simply that the angle of the windscreen in relation to the light and a cyclist's riding position often makes it appear opaque. For that reason I can rarely make out the face of a car driver, but usually can with the drivers of larger vehicles, when looking up rather than down at the windscreen.

Re: Would you have said something?

15 May 2015 - 7:35pm
I wonder if it was the same ugly white 4x4 that nearly cleaned me up in Nottingham the other week?

To cap it all I was almost run down on the zebra crossing opposite Nottingham station on Weds morning. I was pushing my bike across when a woman on a BSO came flying down the road and didn't stop even though I had to swerve out of her way. She seemed oblivious to my shout of "this is a zebra crossing", as did the 2 boys in blue who stood by and watched it happen!

Re: With double give ways who gives way?

15 May 2015 - 6:14pm
Can we just put some figures on this.

What was the damage to your, did you say girlfriend's, bike? Has she lost any income? Could she push for any damages through being hurt? What sort of car was the dentist driving and what age - according to Top Gear all dentists drive Saabs. How much damage was there to the car? Did your other half take a photo of the damage to the car?

If the damage to the bike is, say, £100 and your girlfriend gets paid for her time off work then it may not be worth pursuing. But, if the damage is higher, say £500, and your girlfriend has lost a day's pay at £150 then there becomes more of a financial reason to sue the driver (I think he is in the wrong). One little problem is the statement off the policeman saying it was 50:50 - but then he probably just couldn't be @rsed to do the paperwork so tried to put your girlfriend off.

If you feel the need to pursue this and don't have bike legal insurance, get a half hour free session with a solicitor that deals with road traffic accidents. See if you have a case. Then, go back to the dentist, tell him what you've been advised and that you are willing to settle without going through the legal process - or, just let the solicitor handle it.

I'd agree with others though that the fact that the car went into the side of the bike gives you a good case as the bike has already crossed the give way lines way before the car. I'm assuming that the bike was going fairly slowly as it will have had to slow down for the give way lines twenty yards previous. Do you know what road signs (other than markings) there were for the cycle lane and for the car driver - I couldn't see any for the cycle lane.

Re: how to communicate with "imprisoned" drivers?

15 May 2015 - 5:56pm
brynpoeth wrote:how should one communicate with drivers "hidden" behind closed windows of tinted or mirror glass?
...

Any thoughts / suggestions?
Communicate by reporting the car to the police. Rear windows can have a heavy tint but front windows can't.

Re: With double give ways who gives way?

15 May 2015 - 5:07pm
I endorse an earlier comment, first arrival gains priority, as covered in the Highway Code.

Re: Caution Cyclists Signs

15 May 2015 - 4:38pm
"Cycle Event" sounds like something a washing machine does, or some jargon in maths. Insert a cycle event just here and bingo, the equation all balances out.

Re: With double give ways who gives way?

15 May 2015 - 4:05pm
In the case the police were correct - both vehicles had proceded through the give way markings so both were at fault.

The problem here is the existence of the parallel cycle path (an inherently dangerous arrangement at priority junctions, particularly when it is bi-directional as in this case) and nothing whatsoever to do with the markings. If anything, requiring both streams of traffic to give way should enhance safety as it requires both parties to a collision to get it wrong rather than just one of them - a case of belt and braces.

Archive

  • Patron: Her Majesty The Queen
  • President: Jon Snow
  • Chief Executive: Paul Tuohy
  • Cyclists' Touring Club (CTC): A company limited by guarantee, registered in England no.25185. Registered as a charity in England and Wales No 1147607 and in Scotland No SC042541

Copyright © CTC 2015

Terms and Conditions