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Re: Yet another example of criminal injustice

21 March 2015 - 6:55pm
CPS
Factors that are not relevant in deciding whether an act is dangerous or careless

The following factors are not relevant when deciding whether an act of driving is dangerous or careless:
the injury or death of one or more persons involved in a road traffic collision. Importantly, injury or death does not, by itself, turn a collision into careless driving or turn careless driving into dangerous driving. Multiple deaths are however an aggravating factor for sentencing purposes (Sentencing Guidelines Council: Causing Death by Driving Guideline, page 5, paragraph 19);

...

In short: Safe, competent drivers may still be involved in fatal collisions.

Re: Yet another example of criminal justice

21 March 2015 - 6:52pm
Surely by definition if you kill (or SI) someone whilst driving your standard of driving IS far below that of everyone else, or are we accepting that all the other drivers that encountered X cyclist (or whomever is killed) on that given day are advanced drivers far above, in which case that means they are still below the norm. If that low level IS the 'accepted' norm why aren't all the other drivers killing and maiming?

Re: Yet another example of criminal justice

21 March 2015 - 6:37pm
661 Pete.I might be repeating myself. If I am,apologies. I read that so slow is the criminal justice system in Italy,and so 'variable' the decisions,that justice is often seen as 'denied'. Without faith in the judicial system some people have taken to resolving matters through the Camorra. I guess you go to the head honcho,put in your claim and 'the boss' sorts it out. Only later are you expected to 'pay-the-bill'. Legal costs,length of time to achieve equitable resolution,questionable court outcomes...can make the Comorra appear quite attractive to some.

Forgive the cynicism: British Justice: Black boy buys looted pair of trainers from Tottenham riots = 6 months in the slammer. White high-flyer chief executive in some banking biz,millions missin or improperly sold = no prosecution,maybe some fake contrition,a weak aplogy,then back to job with bonus+++.

The good ol' days: Smash up the restaurant or the town,urinate and wot-not. Good background,public schoolboy? That's high-jinks. For the council house kid,that meant Borstal and a criminal record that wrecked his life.

Re: Utility Pannier Bags

21 March 2015 - 3:23pm
I have a pair of bags from Basil. A double set that I leave permanently on the bike. The fixings are simple enough but also fiddly enough that they are unlikely to be just lifted from the rack. The bags are single compartment which I just drop my stuff into - usually in a pair of Co-Op bag for life carrier bags.

Re: Yet another example of criminal justice

21 March 2015 - 2:55pm
You have to read Bez's analysis of the case.

https://beyondthekerb.wordpress.com/201 ... ight-here/

Re: Utility Pannier Bags

21 March 2015 - 2:44pm
I have two sets of utility panniers.

For Sustrans Ranger work I've a set of worn out Carradice Carradura donated to me by a friend. Not waterproof, some holes, front pocket zips failed, frayed at the edges, clips on the straps and the hook elastics have broken and been replaced, various paint splashes; in short they've got character.

The commuter sports a single plain black Halfords bag, one of a pair secured for 99p off ebay quite a few years ago. Not waterproof, very floppy construction and some largish holes have worn into the bottom. To prevent things falling out and to add a little rigidity I constructed a shaped insert for the bottom of the bag from estate agent board. Hooks are simple metal loops but it also has a sprung clip and tensioning strap to keep everything in place. When the holes in the current bag get too bag I'll transfer everything to it's pair.

Utility Pannier Bags

21 March 2015 - 2:08pm
Just wondered what other people use and whether you have a preference for any particular kind or type...single pannier perhaps? , permanent or removeable, fixings and closure type etc...

I bought some SJS panniers last year (£8 on ebay) http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/sjsc-rear-pa ... prod11550/. The rack fixings are aweful, with the hooks too close together and flappy bungi cords. So I successfully modified them and they now stick to the rear rack like glue. viewtopic.php?f=5&t=79714&start=15 They may be light, but they are also made of cheap materials and now show signs that they are about to fall to pieces
They would be ok for occasional use. The velcro handle also made an execllent place to hold my mini D lock.

Re: It me or do SUVs alway drive to close

21 March 2015 - 12:45pm
blackbike wrote:I find it odd that 4x4 drivers who lumber towards me on narrow country lanes never want to pull over on to muddy verges so I can get past.

Like other drivers they expect me to get out of their way and get just as annoyed when I don't.

Why don't they use the off-road capabilities of their pride and joy?

Maybe 'cos they don't want to trash the grass verges (well they used to be grass...). Sussex drivers show seem to show no such inhibitions, IME.

Re: Lorries

21 March 2015 - 12:44pm
Thanks. I see I am way behind the times. Must have missed that post.

Re: It me or do SUVs alway drive to close

21 March 2015 - 10:57am
Isn't this something to do with the increasing width of cars generally (especially SUVs), coupled with habits ingrained from the time you first learned to drive. Nearside clearance is something which a learner finds difficult to master: but once learned, it becomes one of those instinctive 'feel' aspects of driving, so that few people regularly check their nearside mirror. The trouble is that the acquired 'feel' is the one that was right for your first car: and older drivers in particular are sticking with that, and aren't conscious of the need to adapt to the markedly increased width. That's my hypothesis, anyway.

Re: Yet another example of criminal justice

21 March 2015 - 10:51am
There is nothing in the following I have not posted before:

To prove a charge of careless driving, the prosecution must show that the driving fell below what is normally OK.

A person is to be regarded as driving without due care and attention if (and only if) the way he drives falls below what would be expected of a competent and careful driver.
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/52/section/3ZA

Dangerous driving "is far" below that standard.

... a person is to be regarded as driving dangerously if (and, subject to subsection (2) below, only if)—
(a) the way he drives falls far below what would be expected of a competent and careful driver, and
(b)it would be obvious to a competent and careful driver that driving in that way would be dangerous.
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/52/section/2A

This verdict simply shows how low are the standards expected of drivers in England and Wales. A verdict like this has no formal effect on future prosecutions ie it sets no binding precedents but it will surely influence future investigations and decisions to prosecute. (And probably whether or not anybody bothers to submit a file to the CPS for consideration.) The inevitably wide publicity this will receive will also strengthen the belief that "they can't touch you for it."

I'll not waste time by dwelling yet again on how we reached this deplorable situation.

Re: Cyclist defence fund Michael Mason

21 March 2015 - 9:36am
beardy wrote:tyreon wrote:Reohn2. Now look if that cyclist had attended some well known public school,had a 'promising future'...all the good stuff and as extolled by some well paid solicitor. Same verdict? It's all in the presentation and how that victim was portrayed. ell presented case,monied young man mown down...a different verdict?

I seem to recall an Army Major and Afghanistan "war hero" was taken out by a lorry and the usual zero or token penalty was handed out.

Perhaps he didn't have friends in high places or Mason's lodge's

Re: Yet another example of criminal justice

21 March 2015 - 9:21am
Looking at some of the comments on road.cc .... understandable but scary!
"time to deal with things your self cos the law wont"
"Vigilante justice is the only way?"
"I really do hope the jury loose (sic) someone to a texting driver."
"Do we know the drivers address? More ways of achieving justice than through courts."
etc. etc.

I must stress that I'm not registered on road.cc, but even if I were, I'd think twice before entering into that sort of 'discussion'. But I do feel, as I said before, that in this 800th anniversary year of Magna Carta, the entire jury system has run its course and ought to be done away with, full stop.

I sat on a jury just once, 25 years ago, that was before the days of saturation internet, but even then I felt, with hindsight, that the verdict we arrived at (on a relatively minor case) was flawed. Nowadays, how can any member of the public picked out at random be assured of being totally impartial?

We elect MPs and other political representatives and then expect them to 'get on with the job' without constantly referring back to teams of twelve members of the public pulled in off the street. Yes I know they get it wrong sometimes, some of them are corrupt, yes the party you don't like gets elected to office. But on the whole this is how democracy works. And most of the time it does work. Why not the same for our legal process? There are no juries in the Appeal court and we accept its judgements.

Re: Red Blob to Blue Blob

21 March 2015 - 8:15am
niggle wrote:Yes but Mebyon Kernow and many local people down this way consider Cornwall to be a separate country, as per Wales and Scotland. Interesting that in the first post you mentioned the "Cornish/English" border, rather than referring to Devon.It's not just people down your way who think this.

The Cornish/English border is a very definite geographical border for most of its length. Cornwall is almost an island. It wasn't until the 15th century that the stone bridges across the River Tamar were built, and the lowest crossing here at Gunnislake remained the lowest crossing right up until the 1960s when the suspension bridge was built down at Plymouth/Saltash. That bridge is over 15miles downstream.

Gunnislake is often described as a "border town". We often joke that we're guarding the border and keeping back the marauding English hordes.

Re: Yet another example of criminal injustice

21 March 2015 - 12:47am
CPS information.
Can the prosecutor appeal if a person is acquitted (found not guilty)?

There is no general right of appeal if a person is acquitted. The general rule was that once a person had been found not guilty of an offence, he could not be tried a second time, (this is known as the "rule against double jeopardy"). However, the law has been reformed to permit a retrial in cases of some very serious offences where there has been an acquittal in court, but compelling new evidence has subsequently come to light which indicates that an acquitted person was in fact guilty. Examples of new evidence might include DNA or fingerprint tests, or new witnesses to the offence coming forward. The main offences to which this applies are murder and other serious violent and sexual offences. It is for the Director of Public Prosecutions to decide if the prosecution should ask for a second trial.

In this case "Not guilty" is the end of the criminal process.

Re: Yet another example of criminal justice

21 March 2015 - 12:07am
Also on BBC news:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-kent-31989287
Totally disgusting. This puts into question the whole jury trial system: surely such cases should no longer be tried before a jury. I only hope the CPS find some way to appeal against this.

Re: Cyclist defence fund Michael Mason

20 March 2015 - 11:05pm
tyreon wrote:Reohn2. Now look if that cyclist had attended some well known public school,had a 'promising future'...all the good stuff and as extolled by some well paid solicitor. Same verdict? It's all in the presentation and how that victim was portrayed. ell presented case,monied young man mown down...a different verdict?

I seem to recall an Army Major and Afghanistan "war hero" was taken out by a lorry and the usual zero or token penalty was handed out.

Re: Lorries

20 March 2015 - 9:24pm

Re: Where to cycle on semi-narrow lanes?

20 March 2015 - 8:13pm
You might describe me as over relucatant to pass; my passing threshold is certainly higher than most other drivers.
But I go by this-
Can I see clearly that there is room to pass at this speed before anything comes the other way?(I don't take any chances with this one).
Is there enough space to pass if the cyclist needs to move out due to a bad road surface, or for any other reason?

If in doubt, I wait. I think it would be wrong to allow myself to be influenced in either decision by the possibility that a driver behind me might behave better if I behaved worse. My first duty is not to do anything that I consider to be unsafe, or take a decision which places someone else at risk because of my direct actions.

If I felt it was safe to overtake, but I simply didn't want to, then I would look for somewhere to pull over and let following traffic pass me, just as I would do if I wanted to drive at significantly below a speed limit when there was no safety reason involved.

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