CTC Forum - On the road

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Updated: 9 min 25 sec ago

Re: E petition surfacing redressing

21 July 2014 - 12:58pm
thirdcrank wrote:Afaik, it's the tar dressing which is important to the road because it waterproofs it, if done correctly. The chippings are just to improve the friction - smooth tar has a very low coefficient of friction (if that's the correct expression.) The irony is that if the loose chippings are not promptly removed, the resulting dunes are about as skid-resistant as surface ice.

Dunes is a good term. There's a road I regularly use which was dressed a few years ago and has ridges parallel to the direction of travel, most unpleasant to walk on, I assume from the action of car tyres after it was surfaced.

Re: Cycling on single-track roads

21 July 2014 - 12:44pm
Mark1978 wrote:Going back to single track roads I've been cycling them quite a bit since the start of this thread and I've noted that even when there are passing places (although not official ones) most car drivers aren't prepared to use them approaching a cyclist, because of course bicycles are infinitely narrow after all. It can be fine as long as the car slows down, I do the same and we work our way past each other, don't mind that at all. It's when they are driving a wider than average car, and they make no attempt to slow down and no attempt to move to the left.

Many drivers are familiar with the timing required for seamless, synchronised passing in passing places. You still get a few whose brain can't compute the simple logic required to pass safely and efficiently.
I too get the occasional oncoming car on a road which is only just wider than the car itself, and the car showing no sign of stopping. One defence mechanism which usually gets a reaction and stops the car is to cycle in an uncoordinated manner, knees and elbows out, wobbling. Failing all else, be prepared to thrust yourself into the hedge because you're going to be the loser in any collision .

Re: E petition surfacing redressing

21 July 2014 - 12:26pm
[XAP]Bob wrote:OK - maybe surface dressing is wonderful. Why do they have to leave a half inch of gravel scattered all over the road.

They don't have to do that at all. What you are seeing there is incompetence.

The difficult question, as ever, is how do we get people do things properly.

Re: Cycling on single-track roads

21 July 2014 - 11:52am
Going back to single track roads I've been cycling them quite a bit since the start of this thread and I've noted that even when there are passing places (although not official ones) most car drivers aren't prepared to use them approaching a cyclist, because of course bicycles are infinitely narrow after all. It can be fine as long as the car slows down, I do the same and we work our way past each other, don't mind that at all. It's when they are driving a wider than average car, and they make no attempt to slow down and no attempt to move to the left.

Re: Cycling on single-track roads

21 July 2014 - 11:44am
Mark1978 wrote:That's a stupid idea. While I get as frustrated as the next person being stuck behind a tractor, mandating them to move over otherwise face fines is not on, they have as much right to use the road as anyone - more in fact considering they are engaging in business use, not going for a jolly in the countryside.

Certainly when I'm out cycling on single track roads and I encounter a tractor I'll usually get off and pull my bike to side of the road until they pass, first because they are much bigger than me and second because it's their area and they deserve to be able to go about their business without tourists like me getting in the way.

What madness is this - advocating tolerance on the road. I'm Mr Toad and all must bow before me (from the side of the road)

Re: Cycling on single-track roads

21 July 2014 - 11:41am
ambodach wrote:Are the single track roads in Cornwall just lanes or are they A roads? No, not like in N Scotland, but there are many B roads with single track segments over distances.

There are some A roads - trunk roads too - that have single track pinch points over bridges or through narrow banks.

Re: E petition surfacing redressing

21 July 2014 - 11:37am
It's not a speed limit, it's just a warning sign.

It should be there as a proper limit, and the thrown debris should be noted as one of the reasons.

The dust is annoying and nasty, but the gravel can really hurt - and if I wasn't wearing glasses...

Re: E petition surfacing redressing

21 July 2014 - 11:29am
Afaik, it's the tar dressing which is important to the road because it waterproofs it, if done correctly. The chippings are just to improve the friction - smooth tar has a very low coefficient of friction (if that's the correct expression.) The irony is that if the loose chippings are not promptly removed, the resulting dunes are about as skid-resistant as surface ice.

On the subject of reinstatements after roadworks, it's my impression that under the current New Roads and Streetworks Act, (NRSWA) whereby statutory undertakers certify their own reinstatements, these are generally better than they used to be under the previous Public Utilities and Streetworks Act (PUSWA) whereby the utilities did a temporary repair and the highway authority made it permanent if they got a round tuit. IME, many of the problems arise when the original road fails around a decent reinstatement.
===========================================
PS AFAIK, the speed limit is mainly to prevent skidding on the loose material, rather than to reduce the flying debris.

Re: Attention London cyclists only! Red light running survey

21 July 2014 - 11:29am
TonyR wrote:You might find the following useful:
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/cdn/static/cms/do ... lights.pdf
Of pedestrians injured in London in a collision caused by red light jumping only 4% involve cyclists, whereas 71% occur when a car driver jumps a red light and 13% when a motorcyclist does.

It says
Articles have emerged recently in The Times, The Guardian and The Evening Standard stating that women are more likely to be killed or seriously injured while cycling as they obey the law and wait whilst traffic lights are red. The media claim that this is supported by an unpublished TfL report which states that 86% of female cyclist fatalities in London involved a heavy goods vehicle turning left at a junction.

I would have been interested by a clear statement on this matter. I'm pretty sure I did once find a report on the TfL website which indicated that red-light-jumpers had a lower accident rate at light-controlled junctions than others, but it was quickly taken down and buried. But, false memory and that, it is hard to prove. Maybe I read one of those articles in the newspaper.

Unfortunately all that report does is measure red light jumping by cyclists at a selection of junctions, none of which is in central London "proper" as I would think of it, rather in the inner London around the centre. Unfortunately it didn't record how many of those RLJs inconvenienced any other person, which would have been interesting. No collisions were observed. Only one near collision was observed, between a non-violating cyclist and a violating motor vehicle.

Re: Cycling on single-track roads

21 July 2014 - 11:28am
When safe....

I occasionally go from work to the next town up a busy A road. Single lane in each direction, but sufficiently busy that it's not easy to overtake due to oncoming traffic.

The first main place I can do anything is the roundabout - which I tend to loop all the way around - this allows a reasonable amount of traffic through, whilst allowing me to rejoin with priority.

The other places I use are two truck stop laybys. They are both on uphill segments, so they make excellent little detaours for me, allowing a significant amount of traffic to pass. Of course they have the disadvantage that I then need to stop for a while if the road is slightly busier than normal - but I generally get a thank you from the following HGV (and it's always an HGV).

Just for information I averaged over 18mph each way on the journey on Friday - and there is a large stretch which is horribly surface undressed.
So not exactly hanging around - but not motorised either.

Re: E petition surfacing redressing

21 July 2014 - 11:24am
[XAP]Bob wrote:As far as I can tell they don't roll it at all here, and they certainly don't do any sweeping of excess.

They just leave a wide swathe of deep gravel all over the road. The car tyres then flick that up at everyone around as they ignore the "10mph, skid risk" signs, and overtake me as I'm doing more than that (and struggling since the surface is so poor.

Yup, nobody sticks to 10mph. Cue me struggling in inch deep gravel, and a panel van comes past at about 40mph kicking up stones and plumes of dust in it's wake; wasn't impressed.

Re: Cycling on single-track roads

21 July 2014 - 11:20am
That's a stupid idea. While I get as frustrated as the next person being stuck behind a tractor, mandating them to move over otherwise face fines is not on, they have as much right to use the road as anyone - more in fact considering they are engaging in business use, not going for a jolly in the countryside.

Certainly when I'm out cycling on single track roads and I encounter a tractor I'll usually get off and pull my bike to side of the road until they pass, first because they are much bigger than me and second because it's their area and they deserve to be able to go about their business without tourists like me getting in the way.

Re: E petition surfacing redressing

21 July 2014 - 11:19am
As far as I can tell they don't roll it at all here, and they certainly don't do any sweeping of excess.

They just leave a wide swathe of deep gravel all over the road. The car tyres then flick that up at everyone around as they ignore the "10mph, skid risk" signs, and overtake me as I'm doing more than that (and struggling since the surface is so poor.

Re: E petition surfacing redressing

21 July 2014 - 11:01am
[XAP]Bob wrote:OK - maybe surface dressing is wonderful. Why do they have to leave a half inch of gravel scattered all over the road.

Can they not roll it in?

I think they have to put excess on to make the stuff work into the tar properly when they roll it. Round here they' now go over with a mechanical sweeper to remove the excess - after a number of accidents each summer when surface dressing left sometimes an inch or so of loose gravel on the road. It wasn't helped by the road menders putting the slow down loose chippings signs exactly where the loose chippings started.

Re: Cycling on single-track roads

21 July 2014 - 10:57am
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-mid-wales-28328073

Similar issues - how long a queue do you allow before you stop and let them pass? Years ago I had a holiday tractor job on a farm, the conundrum was that some country lanes were so busy that if you pulled over to let cars pass you could remain pinned in the pull-in for ages waiting for a gap - and you end up creating more of an obstruction by occupying a pull-in that was needed for oncoming traffic to pass. Result: gridlock! You need a very quiet room and to speak very slowly to explain this concept to a typical traffic cop or irate motorist.

Re: E petition surfacing redressing

21 July 2014 - 10:26am
OK - maybe surface dressing is wonderful. Why do they have to leave a half inch of gravel scattered all over the road.

Can they not roll it in?

Re: E petition surfacing redressing

21 July 2014 - 10:11am
cheesypeeps wrote:Hi
Please sign this petition.
http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/67408
I nearly came off my road bike the other week as there had been no attempt at all to sweep away the loose stones. Like riding on marbles.
Sadly your petition is based upon a misunderstanding of what surface dressing is and what it is for. I suggest you delete it, because no one will take any notice of a petition founded upon such misunderstandings, and will find them very easy to bat off. We actually need more surface dressing, not less. But clearly we need it to be done properly and safely.

Surface dressing is not resurfacing, cheap or otherwise. It is a life-extension technique for the existing road surface. It is a cost-effective and low carbon road maintenance technique. A lot less of it has been done of late, because of budget restrictions, and this has been a false economy, because it has resulted in road surfaces breaking up and potholing. Potholes are terrible for cyclists, and when you next see a badly potholed road, you can think "if only they'd done a surface dressing in time, this wouldn't have happened."

As I said, what we need is for surface dressing to be done properly and safely. But I would caution against simply demanding things unless you have an idea how they can be practically and effectively delivered. Ask yourself, exactly what legal change do you have in mind that would achieve this. You can say, that's for them to say, but actually it isn't. It is easy for them to say that there isn't a practical adjustment and bat your demands off, unless you actually have something in mind and some evidence that it works well.

Re: E petition surfacing redressing

21 July 2014 - 8:34am
Cunobelin wrote:eileithyia wrote:Signed.... should it not be in an area that is more relevant ie on the road?

Seems to me that on the road is an appropriate place to put a road surface dressing....

I'd suggest otherwise - back to the idiots who suggested it maybe. But keep it off the roads, it's potentially lethal stuff...

Re: E petition surfacing redressing

21 July 2014 - 12:37am
gaz wrote:I think it was early May when I was turned around at the "Road Closed" sign by the lady from the council's contractors. Fair enough too, they've got a job to do and don't need me trying to cycle through the middle of it.

She explained that a number of cyclists had ignored signs and advice over the last few days, adding that she was sure that the various black, noxious, sticky substances involved would be very hard to remove and possibly quite damaging to carbon fibre. How much of that was true and how much was flannel I don't know.

Whilst I don't know the name of the road mending process they were using it was much better than the tar and chippings method described by the OP.

The thing is road closed signs usually lie. Unless a bridge has been taken out it's possible to get through. Last year one of the roads to our village had road closed signs but it wasn't closed at all other than the signs and some plastic barriers all easily removed. The year before similar signs and barriers were put up on the fen road in the next village at harvest. I don't think the tractor drivers carting corn even bothered to remove the signs and barriers they just drove over them.

Re: E petition surfacing redressing

20 July 2014 - 9:48pm
eileithyia wrote:Signed.... should it not be in an area that is more relevant ie on the road?

Seems to me that on the road is an appropriate place to put a road surface dressing....

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