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Updated: 36 min 42 sec ago

Re: Cyclists are treated as if they are staionary.

26 February 2015 - 12:26pm
Absolutely. Larger vehicles (lorries, busses, etc.) are far worse.

e.g. cycling along at 20 mph in a 30 limit, vehicles don't seem to realise how long it would take to pass something if they were only going at 10 mph. so they (without thinking) seem to do the same as when passing a stationary object.

Maybe cars misjudge it as well but being shorter results in things not getting so close.

And the absolute insult (a month ago) was a Travis Perkins lorry pulling in far far too close, only to present me with a real close-up view of their "Cyclists Stay Back" sticker on the back of the lorry !!!


Re: Another cyclist death: left-turning lorry

26 February 2015 - 12:26pm
It is an awful lot of slippery slope between banning a particular manoeuvre which is believed to directly cause regular frequent deaths and denying access to public highways.

Re: Another cyclist death: left-turning lorry

26 February 2015 - 12:20pm
pwa wrote:It's not your fault, as it's not clear from Google, but Pontycymmer is in a very steep sided valley, and turning off the main street involves a very steep sudden climb in most cases. Almost all the streets have characterful terraces of stone houses. Separation of use is not something I can imagine in that situation.
I thought it was pretty clear from both the Streetview (you've handrails and other telltales) and the contours on the map I linked. It's not the Italian mountains, though, and they still separate use there.

Otherwise, you get Pontycymmer's current situation of all the characterful streets being blighted by motor traffic and the safest streets for non-motorised users being the least convenient ones at the top and bottom (although cycle collision stats look marginal, with one slight injury at a crossroads on Victoria Street and I'm not aware of the Welsh equivalent of http://road-collisions.dft.gov.uk ).
beardy wrote:... I don't think this law's going to happen soon. Could you stick to more realistic measures like improving junction layouts?

No, I will not.

Just because they may not want to deliver it, doesnt mean that we are not going to self-censor it from our lists. same goes for presumed liability, we are not going to say "The Daily Mail doesnt like it, so thats the end of that".

If I have to settle for peanuts like "improved" junction layouts, that will not stop me suggesting what we really should be getting. Not that I am particularly in favour of an inside filtering ban but it is an option and I also think it is a more viable and possible option than you do, there is quite widespread support for restricting cyclists' activities.
Firstly, if you can start that ball rolling, where do you think it will it stop? Cycles banned from all rural A roads? B roads too? All routes with lorry signs? All roads where off-road tracks exist, no matter how crap?

Secondly, I wasn't entirely serious and was simply reversing the argument often posted by law-change advocates against infrastructure campaigns, such as viewtopic.php?p=668185#p668185 and many others.

Re: Not all bad..

26 February 2015 - 12:16pm
pwa wrote:A car followed me at a respectful distance for over a minute on a hill with no good passing spots. A school minibus did the same a little later...
I would pull over and let the vehicles past in that situation, but I suppose there are different schools of thought. Still, glad you had such a nice ride.

pwa wrote:...And a farmer called his very well behaved sheepdog to heel as I approached and we exchanged cheery hellos as I passed. It was nice to be on the bike.
Not a sheepdog, a snowy landscape (England, not Wales!), but that put me in mind of this, by the cycling artist Frank Patterson:

Patterson Byway Riding (snow) edit (Large).jpg

Cyclists are treated as if they are staionary.

26 February 2015 - 12:08pm
I think that most of my conflicts with non-belligerent motorists come down to the fact that they have failed to take into account the fact that I am moving. They sub-consciously plan their route as if I am a static item like a bollard rather than a moving object.

This is the most common reason for cars and more importantly HGVs cutting across me when they overtake. They did not mean to cut across me, they just complete the manoeuvre as if I was totally static rather than just going a bit slower. I bet that the majority of left hooks are down to this.

Re: Pinch points.

26 February 2015 - 11:57am
It is never a threat from cars behind you, they have already come alongside and then it is just a battle of wills. Your ears tell you whether they are planning coming through or holding back even with earphones on.

Re: Another cyclist death: left-turning lorry

26 February 2015 - 10:58am
reohn2 wrote:IMO that's a perfectly reasonable rule/law to implement which should also be followed up with a public information schedule,including TV,radio,billboard and any other media available used to reinforce and drive home the message.
You'd struggle these days to reach everyone. It's not like the old days when pretty much everyone sat in front of one of the 3 tv channels on an evening. I can go weeks without watching TV or listening to the Radio. I don't see any billboards and I tend not to watch anything containing ad's and use ad blockers on my computers. In short it'd be too expensive.

Out of interest, just how many deaths are actually due to cyclists riding up the inside of lorries?
How many are due to lorries overtaking cyclists and then turning left? (Certainly I know of more of these than the first).

What would concern me is survivors justice. "Sorry m'lud but they must have cycled up the inside of my lorry, as a professional driver with 40 years blemish free driving..." yada yada.

In short I think that even if you spent a small fortune I'd put money on it you'd barely dent the KSI's. OTOH it's not beyond the wit of man to make sure lorries are safer both by design and in the way their operated. I'm more than a little suspicious that all these deaths involve tippers - a truck type amazingly over-represented and which IME are frequently driven so badly as to be criminal (Grundy's Skip Hire of Widnes - I'm looking at you).

I've no issue with education (or attempts thereof) but it should be done hand in hand with other things because otherwise I reckon it's a waste of time.

Re: Another cyclist death: left-turning lorry

26 February 2015 - 10:56am
I was a regular on those roads, doing multidrops from Cardiff and general van deliveries. Those roads were quite memorable as you are driving along permanently trying to squeeze through, dodging mirrors of parked and approaching cars. The state of constant concentration for such precision was quite tiring.

However they are pretty safe for vulnerable road users because I had to keep the speed of my van down and there was no space to try and squeeze past, you had to wait for a passing place.

Re: Another cyclist death: left-turning lorry

26 February 2015 - 10:45am
Alan (in Wales?)

How would you suggest we improve matters in the nineteenth century roads of Pontycymmer, where the roads are fairly narrow, cars have to park on the street, delivery vehicles have to use the same roads as cyclists and pedestrians. There is a very nice cycle track, but people have to walk or cycle down the streets to get to it. Do you want to go up there and tell people that they cannot have cars any more? Do you suggest deliveries to shops are forbidden, or can only happen after midnight? I'm not sure how you would change things for the better in the real world outside London. We don't start with a clean slate. We start with what we have.

Re: Pinch points.

26 February 2015 - 10:41am
I see no need for a mirror at no point in all of this am I unaware what the cars are doing or where they are.

Re: Pinch points.

26 February 2015 - 10:37am
Just what your doing. I presume you use a mirror. Knowing when the near misses are coming makes mitigating them easier. They wouldn't stop me using a road but they make it much less relaxed. I could see less confident cyclists finding them a nightmare.

Re: Another cyclist death: left-turning lorry

26 February 2015 - 10:37am
It's worth pointing out that if the topics had not been separated - at my request - this thread would have included discussion of the runaway lorry which killed four people including a toddler using a pedestrian crossing in the care of her grandmother. It's dangerous machinery in public near vulnerable people. Different circumstances but similar underlying issues. Expediency rules! OK?

Re: Pinch points.

26 February 2015 - 10:34am
Yup, the only answer seems to be to move ostentatiously into primary position as you approach the squeeze point.
The most disastrous ones round here are on the B3354 through Colden Common - see if you can spot the flaw in this: http://goo.gl/maps/OUciO

Re: Another cyclist death: left-turning lorry

26 February 2015 - 10:31am
beardy wrote:.......I thought XAPBob's post above sums it up very well, though I would offer another option. A complete ban on cyclists (or anybody else) filtering on the inside of HGVs and possibly every other motorised vehicle. If the public were capable of dealing with it, this could have the exception for marked mandatory cycle lanes of a significant width, like in some other countries but I dont think our drivers could cope with it.
IMO that's a perfectly reasonable rule/law to implement which should also be followed up with a public information schedule,including TV,radio,billboard and any other media available used to reinforce and drive home the message.

Re: Pinch points.

26 February 2015 - 10:26am
Call for more comprehensive traffic calming measures, e.g.Ringlestone.

In the meantime carry on with what you are already doing.

Re: Another cyclist death: left-turning lorry

26 February 2015 - 10:23am
As [XAP]Bob said above (and repeatedly said by contributors who believe that inclusive cycling should be possible), this is not a 'blame game' - it is far too serious for that. To continue with a situation where large machines are allowed, due to economic decisions, to be operated in a manner which puts people using a public space at risk simply because they are not cognizant of the dangers and limitations of the way those vehicles are operated; is wrong. There are ways of changing this and the blame (and it is blame when such words as "crazy" and "suicidal" are used) being placed on the victim here is IMO disgusting.

Danhopgood: You have misunderstood 'moral equivalence' completely: It is not a legal balancing measure, it is a logical fallacy: In this case it is the logical fallacy of arguing that being in a public space with something that is extremely unlikely to harm others is morally equivalent to operating dangerous machinery in the same public space (particularly machinery which has a proven record of killing people).

Of course in addition to moral fallacies, this thread also shows many Moralistic Fallacy assumptions - that the world is as it should (or must) be. This is easily refuted by looking at examples (in this world) where cities thrive and cyclists ride without exposing the latter to this type of danger.

Re: Question About cycle Lane Signs/Use Mandatory/Advisory

26 February 2015 - 8:11am
Valbrona wrote:... does the Highways Agency make it up as they go along, like if there's a good quality adjacent cycle route your banned because there is no good reason not to use a busy A road ...
It isn't just the Highways Agency. There are some local authority roads that are "no cycling". As for alternative cycle routes, IME the terms "good quality" and "adjacent" are open to considerable interpretation.

Re: Question About cycle Lane Signs/Use Mandatory/Advisory

26 February 2015 - 7:56am
Usually it is just motorways and A roads that have been designated as motorways I think. They are either numbers with an M at the front or A roads with the letter M in brackets after. You usually also start to see blue motorway signs and signs saying non-motorway traffic to filter off. However the motorway junction near us has two stretches of road to get to the junction and both are motorway classed A roads but they cut a bit of a corner so you do see cyclists using them occasionally because their GPS told them perhaps but they do. Usually get a few uses of the horns from passing motorists and I have seen the police stop one once.

I personally think that a large A road is kind of a deterrent to cyclists without this designation. There are several roads I can ride down but will go out of my way to avoid. Although I have noticed in the NE there seems to a fair few big roads with separate cycle paths next to them. That is unusual I think for the UK, certainly not the same in the NW.

Re: Another cyclist death: left-turning lorry

26 February 2015 - 7:23am
The lorry driver isn't the person most people here are suggesting needs an upgrade.

The system which allows a single person to be monitoring large swathes of environment in multiple locations around a piece of heavy industrial machinery in a public place is the bigger issue.

The talk of a banksmen/co driver isn't there to blame the driver, but to acknowledge that there is simply too much information for a single person to process in a busy urban environment with plenty of untrained people around.

Yes, ideally the lady in question (assuming the reports up thread are true) wouldn't have overtaken, ideally road markings all over the country wouldn't encourage it, but ultimately the movement of the lorry is what killed her - not her ill judged manoeuvre.

Re: Not all bad..

26 February 2015 - 7:05am
reohn2 wrote:deliquium wrote:Dynamite_funk wrote:If a car waits behind me for longer than say 20-30 seconds I always give a quick hand raised to say thank you (as long as it;s not on a >10% hill!). It only takes a second and I like to think it has an effect on how they will react to other cyclists on the road

^ +1 = Me too ✔✔✔ and often one gets a friendly toot back or a quick flash of hazards

I do this sometimes, but sometimes you are not given the chance to be polite.

Meanwhile on the camera front I am on a learning curve: I now find that uploading a 3GB recording of a half hour one way commute to Youtube will take 600 minutes so will try some free editing software so I can just upload the section in question from the traffic islands to the brow of the hill- around 20-30 seconds so should only take 10 minutes to upload by my reckoning


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