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Re: Brakes work, shame brain doesn't

3 March 2015 - 4:57pm
In a system with no rules how is there any comeback at all when someone behaves in a reckless way and hurts or kills an innocent other as the result of their selfishness? Which road users are those getting hurt or killed likely to be?
Yes, a complete absence of any formal principles would be a complete failure. What the-one-who-sounds-like-a-duck is implying is a scenario where the general principle of it is wrong to harm another human being (or maybe even just cause an accident) still applies. It needs to be thought of as an extension of the sort of traffic scheme where they take away all the road markings and allow pedestrains to mix with the motor vehicles. In other words, if the only guiding rule was 'drive safely' and everyone obeyed that, you might not need as many formal traffic regulations.

Re: Brakes work, shame brain doesn't

3 March 2015 - 4:57pm
danhopgood wrote:In a system with no rules how is there any comeback at all when someone behaves in a reckless way and hurts or kills an innocent other as the result of their selfishness? Which road users are those getting hurt or killed likely to be?
And if fewer are killed? Is the comeback worth that?

Re: Brakes work, shame brain doesn't

3 March 2015 - 4:49pm
kwackers wrote:danhopgood wrote:It's the "I'll do what I can get away with 'cos no-one's enforcing the rules" version, which is much less safe.
Which is bizarrely why rules exist - because we can't be trusted with our own judgement.

Obviously the ideal is to enforce them but since we're not then why is this system better than one where no rules exist? What seems to have happened instead is that people have created their own interpretation of the rules and apply them with a sense of self-righteousness.
With no rules (for example) you wouldn't be tempted to simply cycle through a green light without looking...

(This doesn't infer that I think having no rules is better btw).

In a system with no rules how is there any comeback at all when someone behaves in a reckless way and hurts or kills an innocent other as the result of their selfishness? Which road users are those getting hurt or killed likely to be?

Re: Brakes work, shame brain doesn't

3 March 2015 - 4:40pm
kwackers wrote:As someone who has a more pragmatic viewpoint the only thing that really bothers me is "being too stupid in a built up area" because tbh if people actually engaged their brains all round not only would it be nicer out there but traffic would flow better and the majority of the highway code could be dispensed with.

The problem being that some stick to the rules & laws,some stick to most of the rules & laws,some couldn't give a monkey's for the rules & laws.
The whole idea of rules & laws is that if(small word forgive me ) everyone sticks to them and plays the game things would move an awful lot better plus life on the road would far more predictable.
As it is we have organised chaos,and non or very little law enforcement,and penalties that are treated as an occupational hazard rather than something to make people think twice about breaking those rules & laws,and because road deaths and serious injury are a 'acceptable' levels nothing gonna happen soon.
The upshot of that is that the vulnerable road user who's at the bottom of the 'food chain' comes of worst by being bullied by the 'big misters' in their expensive vehicles who after all have paid their way
The law and rules only work when people obey them,when they don't,they don't, that's why rule No1 (all other road users are mad and have lunatic tendencies,therefore can't be trusted) is always to the forefront of my mind.

EDIT:- beaten to it

Re: Brakes work, shame brain doesn't

3 March 2015 - 4:35pm
danhopgood wrote:It's the "I'll do what I can get away with 'cos no-one's enforcing the rules" version, which is much less safe.
Which is bizarrely why rules exist - because we can't be trusted with our own judgement.

Obviously the ideal is to enforce them but since we're not then why is this system better than one where no rules exist? What seems to have happened instead is that people have created their own interpretation of the rules and apply them with a sense of self-righteousness.
With no rules (for example) you wouldn't be tempted to simply cycle through a green light without looking...

(This doesn't infer that I think having no rules is better btw).

Re: Brakes work, shame brain doesn't

3 March 2015 - 4:24pm
kwackers wrote:danhopgood wrote:No, no, no! I admit I like rules - and there are plenty of people out there that don't. But to suggest everyone just "does the right thing" is just mad given the state of the roads. Maybe in the outback in Oz. Not in central London, thank you. My view is we need to enforce the law as it stands - on all sides.
Having driven and ridden around London I can't say I know which version of the highway code is practised there. Certainly it isn't one I've read.

It's the "I'll do what I can get away with 'cos no-one's enforcing the rules" version, which is much less safe.

Re: Brakes work, shame brain doesn't

3 March 2015 - 4:09pm
are capable of doing over 30mph and I know they will do it in 30mph limits but you can not just give them tickets when they are not because you know they will.
In point of fact this very thing happened to me when I was a motorbike courier. However, I won't dwell on a 30 year-old sense of injustice as it would drive me mad I need to move on from it.

Re: Brakes work, shame brain doesn't

3 March 2015 - 4:06pm
danhopgood wrote:No, no, no! I admit I like rules - and there are plenty of people out there that don't. But to suggest everyone just "does the right thing" is just mad given the state of the roads. Maybe in the outback in Oz. Not in central London, thank you. My view is we need to enforce the law as it stands - on all sides.
Having driven and ridden around London I can't say I know which version of the highway code is practised there. Certainly it isn't one I've read.

Re: Brakes work, shame brain doesn't

3 March 2015 - 4:02pm
I know but you are only breaking the law when you are breaking it.

Cars are capable of doing over 30mph and I know they will do it in 30mph limits but you can not just give them tickets when they are not because you know they will.

Re: Brakes work, shame brain doesn't

3 March 2015 - 3:57pm
It was a nice day wasnt it.

Street Lights are on as are the vehicle lights. Suggests to me that it is after lighting up time, so technically night & the camera may well be enhancing how much light there is available (I know mine does). In any case, you do know what I mean

Re: Brakes work, shame brain doesn't

3 March 2015 - 3:54pm
kwackers wrote:...............
As someone who has a more pragmatic viewpoint the only thing that really bothers me is "being too stupid in a built up area" because tbh if people actually engaged their brains all round not only would it be nicer out there but traffic would flow better and the majority of the highway code could be dispensed with.

No, no, no! I admit I like rules - and there are plenty of people out there that don't. But to suggest everyone just "does the right thing" is just mad given the state of the roads. Maybe in the outback in Oz. Not in central London, thank you. My view is we need to enforce the law as it stands - on all sides.

Re: Brakes work, shame brain doesn't

3 March 2015 - 3:52pm
beardy wrote: none of the cyclists visible have pedal reflectors!

It was a nice day wasnt it.

Beat me to it!!

Re: Brakes work, shame brain doesn't

3 March 2015 - 3:50pm
none of the cyclists visible have pedal reflectors!

It was a nice day wasnt it.

Re: Brakes work, shame brain doesn't

3 March 2015 - 3:45pm
There is a set of written rules for us all to obey, when people start choosing which ones they like (and ban others for disobeying) and which one they dont like they may find somebody else wants to ban them for breaking those laws.

The point is, if you look at the video, there are quite a large number of law breakers in the video: Not only the two guys well forward of the junction, the camera bike, the bloke on his left and the motor scooter all have their front wheels over the stop line: Horrifying as it may seem, none of the cyclists visible have pedal reflectors! However, if that was the only thing that mattered we wouldn't be sitting here dissecting the video. The fact is, both the lorry and the cyclist could both have offended in the way that they did and nothing would have happened if the cyclist had just paid attention to what he was doing. If he had set off when he did, eyeballed the lorry and stopped accelerating, there would have been no incident. I suggest that sort of scenario happens many times an hour in London and nobody bats an eyelid because nothing happens.

Re: Brakes work, shame brain doesn't

3 March 2015 - 3:23pm
which in turn assumes that others are both obeying them and driving in an alert and sensible way.

Well somebody has to start the ball rolling there, it may as well be me.

Re: Brakes work, shame brain doesn't

3 March 2015 - 1:55pm
Tonyf33 wrote:And at no point have I said the cyclist was without fault, just that the lorry was in the majority of fault here and was dangerous, according to 'Kwackers' it wasn't dangerous at all for the lorry to run a red light at such a busy intersection
As I pointed out both jumped red lights and only one ignored highway code advice about entering a junction that wasn't clear. I'd be interested in knowing how you square up the idea that the one with the least blame is actually the one who broke the most rules??

But you're right. In the instance above there's nothing particularly dangerous in what the lorry did, in theory you could have an entire procession of traffic for 10 minutes after the lights have changed and it wouldn't be dangerous - for normal folk. Obviously if you're blind and stupid then all bets are off.
Had the lorry not been part of a procession of traffic then it would have been dangerous but in the instance as shown it was simply an annoyance that was turned into danger by the stupidity of another.

Re: Where to cycle on semi-narrow lanes?

3 March 2015 - 1:55pm
Many lanes are roughly twice the width of a typical car, so cycling in primary position leaves an angry motorist room to push past on either side, just as long as they aren't bothered about leaving more than 3" of clearance.

Re: Brakes work, shame brain doesn't

3 March 2015 - 1:55pm
As has been said many times before crossing a red is not in itself a dangerous act. In fact the main reason for having traffic lights is to share out the use of the junction between both roads.

That doesnt stop crossing a red being a dangerous act on occasions just as pulling out from the minor road (without traffic lights) can be a dangerous act on occasions.

In this case the lorry driver may have been fully aware that there was gridlock and thought he could safely force his way through when it wasnt his right to do so. Being rammed by a cyclist who is setting off is not an everyday occurrence.

Re: Brakes work, shame brain doesn't

3 March 2015 - 1:50pm
Okay, it wasn't dangerous to anyone I'm sure the authorities across the land fully agree and past fines refunded due to it being a ridiculous notion that running a red light isn't dangerous..
that's truly enlightening.

Re: Brakes work, shame brain doesn't

3 March 2015 - 1:43pm
according to 'Kwackers' it wasn't dangerous at all for the lorry to run a red light at such a busy intersection

Because of the low speed that traffic was assumed to be doing, it was only dangerous if somebody was not looking where they were going.
However if there wasnt traffic stuck at the lights and some car was on the road the cyclist was on already doing 30mph and luckily had the lights change in front of them then the truck driver's actions may well have been lethal and nobody would blame anybody but him.

The difference here is that cyclists are seen as slow and able to stop easily, so it is quite safe to pull out in front of them. Which is pretty much accepted by most people, even cyclists it seems.

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