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Updated: 1 hour 23 min ago

Primary line issue this morning

29 June 2015 - 8:10pm
Riding into work this morning. Was heading along this stretch of road:

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.40063 ... 312!8i6656

You may just be able to see the tram tracks under the silver van. When I ride along here, I ride primary and then hook a left so that I can cross the tram lines at a steep angle. I then ride secondary alongside the tram lines. Never had a problem - got to watch out as it is slightly downhill and there are a few side streets entering onto the road.

Anyway, this morning, around 06:30 - was doing my usual. I knew that there was a moped behind me and a car behind it. As I was cutting over the tram lines, the moped overtook me on the left. I just spotted him out of the corner of my eye before he went past. I had to then change course and stay in primary (or hit him). Unfortunately, staying in primary means that my angle over the lines was extremely shallow. Bit of a brown shorts moment but I managed to not come off.

Legged it after him and caught him up at the next lights that were just changing to green. Pulled alongside him and said, "you're an idiot". I did well not to add any swear words or smack him one. He said something back - not sure what it was but I think that he had already realised that he was close to taking me out. What shocked me as much as his manoeuvre was the fact that this wasn't some spotty youth but someone that looked about my age (forties).

The good news was that I was so wound up I knocked over half a minute off my ride in time.

Re: Please help!

29 June 2015 - 8:09pm
I had some knee problems using cleats, though I don't know if they were the cause. Anyhow I switched to some platform pedals fron Clas Ohlson. They cost me no more than £4 for a pair and I rode for 12 months with these. Club runs everything. I never noticed that they affected my performance in any way.

Re: Another death and inadequate sentence

29 June 2015 - 6:02pm
I suppose the argument is that it gets an unproportional amount of press coverage because it's a rare occurrence, apparently around 40 pedestrians a year are killed on the pavement or verges a year. Although that's from this 2009 article.


http://www.theguardian.com/environment/ ... g-pavement

Re: Another death and inadequate sentence

29 June 2015 - 5:43pm
There is no getting around the fact that this sort of behaviour is bad for all cyclists.

Making statements about cars would appear to me to be trying to shift the blame for the death of this Lady. A total waste of a life.

Re: Another death and inadequate sentence

29 June 2015 - 10:51am
Let us remember that the great majority of vehicle/pedestrians collisions which occur on the footway, as opposed to in the roadway, involve a motorised vehicle. It is sadly common for people to run their own children over, there was even a case in the news this morning. The sharing of footways between cyclist and pedestrians is fairly common in this country, and even more common in some other countries, where they don't seem to find cycling such an emotive issue.

Suppose a lout had just been pushing their way aggressively along the footway as a pedestrian and knocked an old person over so that they hit their head on the ground and died. What kind of sentence would have resulted? I think that is really the comparison one should make.

Re: Close pass - by a driver who should have known better

28 June 2015 - 6:45pm
Yup I'd agree with all the comments about riding further out. Certainly agree with safety being more important than holding drivers up. To be quite honest I'd far rather get blasted and shouted at any day, as long as I hear the vehicle behind slow down.
Had a classic the other day, car roared up behind me, on the local A road, blasted on his horn and roared past. I gave him the obligatory single fingered salute, whereupon he slammed on his brakes and stopped in the middle of the road. First thought, this could be interesting, I wonder if he's bigger than me, I'm 6' 4'! Went to ride up to drivers side, almost a
alongside when he accelerated away, coward?

Re: Close pass - by a driver who should have known better

28 June 2015 - 3:04pm
661-Pete wrote:Riding in primary on that road is certainly a possible option, but not for me. It's a rural stretch of A-road; I'm not as fast as some and only too aware that if I hold up following motorists more than necessary it will only lead to more aggression.
As far as drivers are concerned on a rural A road ALL cyclists are effectively stationary (even Wiggo only manaaged just over 30mph when he broke the hour record the other week). Indeed the faster you go the harder it is to overtake as you need a longer gap in oncoming traffic. By riding slower you are less of an obstruction.

If you ride to the left you are signalling to following drivers that you are happy to share the lane and inviting them to dive through the remaining space (which is effectively your argument when you are reluctant to delay dravers more than is nescessary). Don't then be surprised when drivers do exactly that. As far as I am concerned my safety is more imprortant than any fictional time saving might be possible by a driver overtaking as soon as they encounter me rather than waiting till it is safe and catching up with the rest of the traffic half a mile down the road.

Re: Close pass - by a driver who should have known better

28 June 2015 - 1:10pm
Riding in primary on that road is certainly a possible option, but not for me. It's a rural stretch of A-road; I'm not as fast as some and only too aware that if I hold up following motorists more than necessary it will only lead to more aggression. So I only go to primary where it's strictly necessary (e.g. at bollards). There's a village just beyond that point with 30mph and some tight bends - there I would take primary if necessary.

It was certainly Dutch plates, I'm assuming the car was LHD (although there's a car in our neighbourhood with French plates but RHD). My initial thoughts are, that ought to encourage the driver to leave more space for cyclists. After all, I've had plenty of practice driving on the continent, in both LHD and RHD cars. When in my own (RHD) car, I'm always conscious of the fact that I'm closer than normal to the cyclist I'm overtaking. Nevertheless I do try and give them as much room as I would when overtaking in the UK.

Clearly this doesn't work for everyone.

Re: Close pass - by a driver who should have known better

28 June 2015 - 11:16am
Alan Frame wrote:I often find left hookers pass closer as the driver thinks he can judge the extremities of the vehicle better.

+1. Often my experience also

Re: Close pass - by a driver who should have known better

28 June 2015 - 11:08am
I think we're back to the same problem as always.
If a driver sees a gap that s/he thinks the vehicle they're driving will fit through,some drivers will fit it through irrespective of other considerations.
For some it's the gap they're focusing on,the vulnerability of the cyclist isn't of concern,the passing/not being held up/not having to slowdown,etc,is the issue for them.
This is clearly bad and inconsiderate driving,with no room for error.
As a cyclist I try to minimise that situation by closing the gap and riding further into the carriageway when I deem it necessary,which stops the problem,it may need a strong nerve at times but my life is more important that their journey time.
What I find worse and mindless, is being passed closely when there is a huge gap with no need to pass closely,with no oncoming traffic or a wide roadway,etc,in such situations the safety zone I've created to my left by riding further out in the roadway comes in very handy,whereas in such situations if I were close to the curb I'd be left with nowhere to go.
In a world where all drivers care for vulnerable road users such tactics wouldn't need to be employed,however this is the UK where idiots who drive cars,etc,abound

Re: Close pass - by a driver who should have known better

28 June 2015 - 9:26am
Can't quite see if the vehicle is left hand drive, but I often find left hookers pass closer as the driver thinks he can judge the extremities of the vehicle better.

Re: Close pass - by a driver who should have known better

27 June 2015 - 11:10pm
British motorists living in Holland could well bring their cars over with them when visiting the old country.

Close pass - by a driver who should have known better

27 June 2015 - 10:46pm
I had this happen to me earlier this week. Fairly typical run-of-the-mill close overtake, close enough to be scary to me nonetheless (note that the offender is a BMW) - but look at the numberplate! (freeze frame at about 24s).

You'd have thought, a Dutch motorist, with myriads of cyclists all around him when on home territory, would be able to interact better with cyclists. Or had he perhaps not quite got the knack of driving on the 'wrong' side of the road?

Re: another cyclist killed by a lorry in London

27 June 2015 - 10:11pm
Pete Owens wrote:There are certainly design features of construction vehicles that are likely to make them more likely to crush people. They are higher with bigger heavier wheels so there is a greater chance of being dragged under and run over, rather than being pushed over to the side.

More crucially construction lorries are exempt in legislation from having side bars to prevent cyclists falling under the wheels. That is about to change in London in September when Crossrail standards will become mandatory for all HGVs in London.

Re: Please help!

27 June 2015 - 6:56pm
simple put on some ordinary pedals

Re: another cyclist killed by a lorry in London

27 June 2015 - 6:52pm
mostly based on stereotypes

Which is probably quite suitable as we are talking about the interaction between two groups rather than two specific individuals.

Re: another cyclist killed by a lorry in London

27 June 2015 - 6:41pm
Flinders wrote:Okay, for those who think the stats may reflect women being more likely to go up the inside of vehicles in general, why is it one particular type of HGV that is over-represented? Do women, for some strange reason, only go up on the inside of tipper trucks? Or does that sort of truck have worse arrangements for mirrors?

There are certainly design features of construction vehicles that are likely to make them more likely to crush people. They are higher with bigger heavier wheels so there is a greater chance of being dragged under and run over, rather than being pushed over to the side.
http://lcc.org.uk/articles/lcc-challenges-construction-industry-to-adopt-its-safer-urban-lorry-to-reduce-lorry-cyclist-deaths

However, I'm not sure that a particular type of HGV is that grossly overrepresented when you allow for exposure. The figures I have seen compare the overall milage of different types of truck - typically trucks will do most of their milage on motorways between distribution depots away from town centres so will rarely encounter cyclists. London is a vibrant rapidly growing city with a lot of cyclists and a lot of building work going on so if you are a cyclist in London and encounter a truck it is more likely to be a construction vehicle than say a livestock transport vehicle, and vice-versa if you are riding on a country lane.
I'm female, and I don't go up the inside of trucks,

And neither have you been killed by one
but I have seen men doing it. Trucks also overtake me, sometimes close to/on junctions, however far over I am. Do they never overtake men or something? Do all men, or even most men, take the centre of the lane? I honestly doubt it.

A greater tendency for females to do X doesn't mean that ALL females do X while NO males ever do - or even the majority of females do X.
If say 1% of male cyclists regularly undertook left turning trucks and 3% of females then that would be sufficient to account for the difference in the casualty rate.
There is something else going on here, and we need to know what it is. Speculation has gone on long enough, we need hard evidence.
While most of the discussion on this thread is indeed speculation (mostly based on stereotypes), the tendencey for women to overtake on the wrong side is base on evidence:
See: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22931179
Bicyclist fatalities involving heavy goods vehicles: gender differences in risk perception, behavioral choices, and training.
Frings D1, Rose A, Ridley AM.

Abstract
OBJECTIVES:
Females are typically involved in fewer collisions when pedal cycling than males. However, female cyclists appear to be overrepresented in the number of fatal collisions involving heavy goods vehicles (HGVs). These collisions often involve cyclists passing HGVs on the side furthest from the HGV driver (nearside). It is hypothesized that this pattern of fatalities may be partly due to differences in how males and females perceive the risk associated with various cycling maneuvers. It is also hypothesized that this difference may be overcome with advanced training.

METHODS:4,596 UK cyclists completed an online questionnaire in which they reported their level of cycle training and rated the risk they perceived to be associated with various cycling maneuvers, the likelihood that they would engage in them, and history of collision involvement.

RESULTS: Females perceived a slightly greater level of risk to be associated with cycling. However, males differentiated between the risks involved in nearside and offside overtaking to a greater extent than females. Risk perception was significantly correlated with the reported likelihood that participants would engage in risky maneuvers such as overtaking on the nearside and also with past collision prevalence. Advanced cycling training was correlated with higher levels of perceived risk associated with overtaking on the nearside; however, basic cycle training was not.

CONCLUSIONS: Cyclists who do not correctly differentiate between the risks associated with nearside and offside overtaking may be more at risk of being involved in HGV-related collisions. Advanced cycling training is linked to more accurate risk perception. To reduce fatalities, public awareness campaigns should focus on the increased risk of nearside overtaking and encourage cyclists to take advanced training.

Re: Please help!

27 June 2015 - 2:57pm
horizon wrote:Although the OP mentioned traffic (for the obvious reasons), I think hills are initially the bigger problem with clipless. Given he may have high gears, wants to ride up steep hills and isn't quite ready, the chances are he'll need to think about getting off - by which time he hasn't the motion to clip out before the bike has stalled. It took me a while to get used to this and I don't think a high pressure situation like the 100 mile is the best time or place. Like others have suggested I too would say, ditch the clipless for now and then re-introduce them slowly and relaxedly until the fears are overcome and the full benefits (I do believe they exist!) can be enjoyed.


Agreed 100%. When road speed is dropping on a steep hill, it isn't the easiest time to unclip. There is also the temptation to stay in so as not to slow even further as you unclip, in the hope that you will make it. But if you don't, and have to stop, you fall over.

Re: Another death and inadequate sentence

27 June 2015 - 2:53pm
OTOH, if he'd been a driver killing a pedestrian or a cyclist, he'd have probably got a lesser sentence or none at all. Or maybe not even been prosecuted.

Re: Spa Cycles steel Audax - any reason not to?

27 June 2015 - 2:21pm
As a one bike does it all bike the Spa Audax does do very well, it could easily be built to 9.5kg. Now many will grimace at references to weight but it adds up at every acceleration you put in, so for the same effort as my road bike ( going by HR, average HR ) then it seems to be around 1-1.5mph average slower on the same routes ( remember this is 10.5kg bike + seat bag/tools 0.6kg + .75kg drink ). My road bike benefits with lower weight, narrower tyres on faster lighter wheels but it isn't practical, its the racing car whereas the Spa Audax is a ford focus ).The versatility of separate mudguard and rack mounts make it an excellent light weight tourer/ commuter. You can then trade the kilo's saved against a full on tourer for your panniers and their contents. If I had to give up all but one of the three bikes I mentioned the keeper would most probably be..... the cyclocross bike. Not what you want to hear I'd imagine but for genuine reasons. It's generally slower due to its weighter disposition but is fractionally more comfortable simply due to 35mm tyres, it can also handle any forest track or sustrans path ( they're quite gravelly where I live, large gravel about 30-40mm ). The spa audax with guards is probably at tyre limit of 28mm but should handle anything a dawes super galaxy would, clearly with less load.... but for road+rough off road tracks I feel the cx style is the better all round choice( kona jake has mudguard and rack fittings not all do if they full on cyclocross ).
So I give the thumbs up to the Spa if predominantly on metalled roads otherwise for commuting, distance and road+off-road touring some of the other alternatives ( adventure bikes, gravel racers, pseudo-cx bikes ) are worth investigating, whyte, kinesis, cotic, salsa etc.. too many to list. I think it's name "Audax" sums up exactly what it's design lends itself to perfectly, long miles at moderately fast speeds and posssibly with moderate luggage carrying. Discs are definitely worth considering too, pretty low maintenance and no rim issues, as I mentioned earlier for me it was purely costs for my project.

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