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Re: What is gr8 about motorcycling?

16 April 2015 - 1:55pm
Bicycler wrote:I think the clue in the phrase 'electrical assistance' is the word 'assistance'. I think we can draw a line between a battery backup used to assist a primarily human powered vehicle and a vehicle which requires no human propulsion.
Yeah... I think the word assistance isn't really of much use. On max assistance on a lot of bikes it's anything but, in reality you're controlling the speed of the bike by how fast you turn the pedals, in essence they become a sort of 'rotary throttle'.
Bicycler wrote:I repeat that it is this human propulsion which defines cycling for me. I could swap my bikes for tricycles, handcycles or pedal cars and when riding I would still in my mind be doing the same activity.
What about vehicles with no wheels? (For example a paddle boat) Do they count?
Personally I think you open more wormy cans with your definition than simply saying anything that has a motor doesn't count.

Bicycler wrote:What you are missing is that only you is trying to limit this to pedal bicycles. Horizon originally said cycles. Not all human powered cycles have the balance and control issues you view as central to cycling.
Did he? Fair enough. If which case we're talking about the motive mechanism and so can rule out everything with a motor and I'm happy to concur.

Re: What is gr8 about motorcycling?

16 April 2015 - 1:36pm
kwackers wrote:horizon wrote:Bicycler wrote:For me the essence of cycling is its human powered nature, number of wheels is an irrelevance

I agree. It defines everything.
Once you've made that choice then logic dictates you have to remove assisted bicycles from it.
Are you happy with that?
I'm happy removing vehicles without human propulsion from my definition of 'cycling' (not that that affects anybody else's right to use such vehicles). I think the clue in the phrase 'electrical assistance' is the word 'assistance'. I think we can draw a line between a battery backup used to assist a primarily human powered vehicle and a vehicle which requires no human propulsion.

I repeat that it is this human propulsion which defines cycling for me. I could swap my bikes for tricycles, handcycles or pedal cars and when riding I would still in my mind be doing the same activity. If I was instead to use a motorised vehicle with an equivalent number of wheels I would think of myself as undertaking a different activity.

From a pedantic pov you can't have a 3 wheeled bicycle because it's a tricycle (or any other number other than 2) and motorcycle is a contraction of motorised-bicycle.
Quite. Though I did think that motorcycle is used to refer to both 2 and 3 wheeled vehicles (motor bicycles and motor tricycles). What you are missing is that only you is trying to limit this to pedal bicycles. Horizon originally said cycles. Not all human powered cycles have the balance and control issues you view as central to cycling.

Re: What is gr8 about motorcycling?

16 April 2015 - 1:04pm
It's more like a duck. The Germans called it the Ente ( = duck in German, which I presume you meant).

Re: What is gr8 about motorcycling?

16 April 2015 - 1:03pm
Bicycler wrote:Nobody is going to win this argument because it depends upon individual perspective. To you are pedal bicycles first and foremost human powered or two wheeled vehicles?
Exactly.

If you're arguing the legal case, motorcycles are cars.
Number of wheels and basic control mechanisms then they're bicycles.

From a pedantic pov you can't have a 3 wheeled bicycle because it's a tricycle (or any other number other than 2) and motorcycle is a contraction of motorised-bicycle. Interesting because as electrical assist becomes more popular we appear to be heading full circle!

Re: What is gr8 about motorcycling?

16 April 2015 - 12:57pm
horizon wrote:two extra wheels
IMO at that point it fails...
It drives like a car, has controls like a car and looks and feels like a car.

(If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck etc etc)

Re: What is gr8 about motorcycling?

16 April 2015 - 12:52pm
A good question and yes. Hence my thread about powered cycling. If the people who believe in new battery power are right then we are in IMV for a sea change in cycling.

BTW I don't have any objection to motorcycles (apart from the usual obvious ones) but they don't grab my interest as I would choose a car over a motorbike. Don't forget that the 2CV had a roll back roof, leaned dramatically into corners, made lots of noise and only had a 600cc engine. All it had over a motorbike was two extra wheels, two extra seats and the ability not to wear a helmet.

Re: What is gr8 about motorcycling?

16 April 2015 - 12:46pm
horizon wrote:Bicycler wrote:For me the essence of cycling is its human powered nature, number of wheels is an irrelevance

I agree. It defines everything.
Once you've made that choice then logic dictates you have to remove assisted bicycles from it.
Are you happy with that?

Re: What is gr8 about motorcycling?

16 April 2015 - 12:07pm
Bicycler wrote:For me the essence of cycling is its human powered nature, number of wheels is an irrelevance

I agree. It defines everything.

Re: What is gr8 about motorcycling?

16 April 2015 - 12:00pm
Maybe not a bicycle, but other human powered vehicles. The bicycle is to the electrically assisted bicycle, the moped and motorcycle what the quadracycle is to the electrically assisted quadracycle, quad bike and motor car. This logic suggests a pedal bicycle has more in common with a motorbike than a pedal tricycle

Nobody is going to win this argument because it depends upon individual perspective. To you are pedal bicycles first and foremost human powered or two wheeled vehicles?

For me the essence of cycling is its human powered nature, number of wheels, size, need to balance etc are irrelevant

Re: What is gr8 about motorcycling?

16 April 2015 - 11:07am
horizon wrote:But that may be as much a reflection of my views on pollution etc rather than the riding experience itself.
Electric motorcycles already exist. Fast electrified bikes already exist.
It's a very blurry line and I reckon you could line up a row of vehicles from a bicycle to a sports motorcycle that would form a very obvious lineage from one to the other.
OTOH you couldn't do the same from a bicycle to a car.

Re: What is gr8 about motorcycling?

16 April 2015 - 11:04am
Tangled Metal wrote:Now I always wondered whether you could turn the motor off and go above 15mph with them or is the motor always on providing power to get up to 15mph or resisting excess speed over 15mph?
Just like any other bicycle you can go as fast as you can pedal - you simply lose assist above 15mph.

It's a completely arbitrary line though.
If you want to argue that the difference between a motorcycle and a bicycle is what is defined by the government then the argument is closed.

I believe the discussion is about whether a motorcycle is closer to a car or a bike though, in which case I maintain it's much closer to a bike and the introduction of assisted bicycles has shifted it even more in that direction.

Re: What is gr8 about motorcycling?

16 April 2015 - 10:55am
There is I believe a distinction between electrically assisted cycles and other 2 wheeled, powered vehicles. That is the speed limit of 15mph which is what these electrically assisted cycles have as their limited top speed. Now I always wondered whether you could turn the motor off and go above 15mph with them or is the motor always on providing power to get up to 15mph or resisting excess speed over 15mph?

AFAIK anything going quicker is classes as a motorbike I supposes with the relevent licence, VED and registration requirements. Arbitary distinction but is placed there in the UK by some authority.

Personally I think of motorbikes as halfway between cycles and cars. Half a car (in that only two wheels) so handles like a cycle, but powered so it has speed like cars (and then some in the super sports category of motorbikes). I accept the handling as being closer to cycles since I have only one experience of bikes. i got a lift on the back of a relatives bike once. The one thing I still remember was being told in no uncertain terms that the motorbike relies on leaning the bike to turn. Not being used to it in quite the same way (IMHO cycling is a bit different in the way of steering to me at least) so I didn't lean right and part way through a turn I got shouted at to lean to the left or we'd be into the other lane of traffic. I still remember the anger and perhaps a bit of fear as my relative was unable to steer right because of this inexperienced lump behind him. Well I was only 9 at the time. To me, from that one memory, they felt like they handled differently to cycles and cars. I guess that is why I see them has halfway between cars and cycles.

BTW I am not sure I have given my inexperienced view to the question in the title. I reckon what is gr8 is the way you can get speed without a lot of effort like a car, yet you are more part of the environment like a cycle. It is freedom from the metal box but with the same speed capabilities (indeed sometimes a lot more speed). The corollary question should be asked too, what is so bad about motorcycling? That has been answered a lot in this thread and that is the minorities who are irresponsible in that they have these powerful machines and cause a nuisance such as riding on the wrong side around bends, taking off legal exhausts to put on noisy pipes to get that bit more speed, racing on the roads, ducking in and out of traffic like dodgy cyclists do infuriating those motorists who can't, duck in and out of their lane to get past cars when it is not strictly safe to do so (you know the sorts, the ones who blitz around a car even though an oncoming car means there is not really a big enough gap), etc. Not all of them are unique to bikes. There are plenty of car owners with noisy exhaust pipes and plenty of cyclists ducking and diving in traffic in an unsafe manner. I guess it is just another way they are like car drivers and cyclists.

Re: What is gr8 about motorcycling?

16 April 2015 - 10:49am
kwackers wrote:If you want to make it debatable

Well It's probably inherent in this thread. But I won't be debating it though: I have virtually no experience of motorbikes. The closest I came was a toss-up between a motorbike for two (me + a passenger) and a Citroen 2CV. The 2CV won but the choice was never between a motorbike and a bicycle.

So I'm left with just my general impressions and surmises: for me the dividing line is power. That's why I'm a bit concerned (intellectually) about electric assist - it blurs the line.

I'm open to and interested in people's views on here, those that say the motorcycle experience is closer to that of a cycle than a car but I put both cars and motorbikes on the other side of a line from bicycles. But that may be as much a reflection of my views on pollution etc rather than the riding experience itself.

Re: Tolerance of heat and cold.

16 April 2015 - 10:42am
Ah yes. Brown Adipose Tissue. It burns fat, keeps you warm and thin. G - perhaps this is why your diet works so well for you - you've got lots of BAT? I believe during the war workers in munitions factories were in contact with chemicals that stimulated the body's production of it and the became emaciated.

Re: Tolerance of heat and cold.

16 April 2015 - 10:36am
Many years ago, we lived in the east of Scotland. We were there for over six years, and in Jan 1980 we moved south to near Plymouth. The following day we went shopping and it was a glorious January day. We drove to the carpark near the shops and didn't bother with coats.

We were amazed that all the shoppers were wearing thick coats and looked freezing cold, whilst we thought it was nice and warm.

Re: I Got Nudged

16 April 2015 - 10:30am
Everything Bicycler says about our attitudes to infirm elderly drivers fits with my own thoughts and experiences. As relatives and friends, or as near-victims, we should do what we can to get them off the road when they are no longer able to drive safely. But when I was nudged by a car I reacted immediately with a rush of anger and loud shouting, then I saw the elderly man behind the wheel. He looked confused and afraid, and I regretted that I had shouted quite so angrily. Logically I had behaved well, but when you find the recipient of your outburst is so frail you don't feel good about yourself.

Re: I Got Nudged

16 April 2015 - 10:22am
That's one of my pet hates. Drivers don't stop at a give way they are constantly edging forward. Like somehow if they don't come to a complete stop that's faster?

Main issue is when I'm cycling past I can see their wheels moving so I don't know if they are just edging or if they haven't seen me and are starting to pull out.

Re: I Got Nudged

16 April 2015 - 10:15am
Ah, the attitude to elderly drivers no longer able to drive competently. No-one wants to deprive a pensioner of their transport do they? Incidents which should raise everyone's attention to the danger are turned a blind eye. Vision requirements are unenforced but then they aren't going very fast or very far and only in daylight so it's okay. This just seems the right thing to do until....
...someone gets hurt or killed and then the question is "why wasn't he stopped from driving?" I remember my granddad's driving in his later years from when I was a child. My mum insisted I walk home rather than accept a lift. If I get to the point where I don't trust my dad to drive he won't be driving unless a doctor tells me he is fit and I would notify the DVLA if I thought he might be inclined to do so. I don't want innocent people hurt and I don't want his final years scarred by the memory and guilt of causing a horrific incident.

As ever with driver licensing it is a privilege, not a right and it must be dependent upon meeting all the criteria to be able to safely operate the vehicle. A tonne of metal hurts as much when it hits you regardless of the age of the driver. We cannot have lower standards for the elderly.

Re: Tolerance of heat and cold.

16 April 2015 - 9:48am
Yes of course. You adapt to the situation you are in.

I was cycling in Mallorca last October. It was 8am the sun was hardly up and I was out in shorts and short sleeves. I was completely roasted, sweating a lot and struggling for power.

On the way back there was a sportive starting in town. Most of the riders had arm and leg warmers on. They thought it was chilly when I was dying in the heat.

Re: What is gr8 about motorcycling?

16 April 2015 - 9:32am
horizon wrote:bikes than between motorbikes and cars. Now that is debatable, I admit.
Is it?

It's a powered bicycle. No different than an assisted bicycle and we discuss those all the time. The physics and dynamics are the same, the problems very similar the only real difference is how rules are applied.

If you want to make it debatable then you'd need to remove assisted bicycles from the bicycle genre because as long as they're there then motorcycles are simply the next evolutionary step and as fast electric bicycles appear along with electric motorcycles then it's a very blurry line with no clear delineation.

Cars on the other hand have almost nothing in common with motorcycles.

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