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Updated: 47 min 21 sec ago

Re: Brakes work, shame brain doesn't

1 March 2015 - 11:23pm
JimL wrote:Your argument is ridiculous but I'll leave it there.
Of course it's ridiculous.

A lorry driver makes a mistake.
A cyclist makes several.

Lorry driver is at fault.

Obvious init?

Re: Brakes work, shame brain doesn't

1 March 2015 - 10:21pm
[XAP]Bob wrote:I'm all for rigorous traffic light cameras to be installed on every set of lights, then we might be able to reduce the "all red" phase, since red would once again mean red, not "red after a few more"

+1 to that!
And a mandatory £200 fine + 3points and a compulsory half day rehab course.
Second offence,£400 fine+ one month driving ban 6points,all day rehab course.
That'd stop 99.9% of 'em

Re: Brakes work, shame brain doesn't

1 March 2015 - 9:55pm
I dont know why people are so keen to find excuses for the cyclist.
I can find a weak possible for the driver - he's in a moving traffic situation with a lot of claims on his attention and missed the change. Or he just cynically took a chance...Certainly incorrect, and certainly not uncommon
By comparison, when you are stopped in front of a red light you don't really have too much to do except waiting for it to change - which this individual clearly did not do. He rolls into the pedestrian crossing at some speed as it turns to amber. He's predicted the change and decided that amber means Go for special people. He doesn't even take a rear observation as he swerves around the cyclists waiting by the kerb corner, even thought there was a motor bike alongside him as he waited. He certainly doesn't look the other way either! He's got his head down, and nothing on his tiny except getting from the rearmost of 5 visible cyclists to the foremost.
Legalities aside, he's riding like an idiot.

Re: Brakes work, shame brain doesn't

1 March 2015 - 9:54pm
661-Pete wrote:I also remember being taught, Green means "you may go if the way is clear" or some such wording. But we've all got so used to the idea that Green means GO, perhaps there are things we need to un-learn then?
I remember 'STOP' being on lights.

I'm not sure the colour blind thing has legs. Surely the one at the top is red and the one at the bottom green. Not sure how you can mix up top and bottom unless there's something seriously wrong with you!

At the end of the day you can't move forward if you don't have a clear road. I know folk these days seem to think that green means go but personally I find that attitude annoying. There's a junction I cycle through every night and watch the idiots getting wound up because their light is green and there's still traffic coming through (legitimately because it's all queued on the far side of the stop line waiting to turn and can't move until after the lights change and the oncoming traffic has stopped. Obviously our cyclist would have problems here too!).
Then there are emergency vehicles - might be one of them coming. The lorry in the above case may have even seen one in their rear view mirror and decided the best option was to keep going and follow the bike through. Perhaps he felt there was someone too close to his rear and to stop would risk a collision.
Obviously I'm not claiming any of these was the case but the cyclist couldn't possibly know what was going on. All he should care about is whether his route was clear and in this case it wasn't. I don't see why it needs to be more complex that that.

IMO it's just as well he didn't hurt himself more seriously because I wouldn't put this case in front of a jury and expect a payout.

Re: Brakes work, shame brain doesn't

1 March 2015 - 9:43pm
When I was a kid, the red traffic light had the word STOP written across the lens. Anyone else remember this? Presumably as an aid to colour-blind drivers who couldn't tell top from bottom. I remember asking my father, why doesn't the green light have GO written on it? I don't recall what his answer was. He probably didn't quote the official mantra.

I also remember being taught, Green means "you may go if the way is clear" or some such wording. But we've all got so used to the idea that Green means GO, perhaps there are things we need to un-learn then?

Re: Brakes work, shame brain doesn't

1 March 2015 - 9:33pm
Almost as if we put them one way up for a reason...

Red is the top light, all my colourblind friends have been aware of that...

Re: Brakes work, shame brain doesn't

1 March 2015 - 9:32pm
I haven't read all the posts, so apologies if I'm repeating something somedody else has said. On advanced driver training you are told that green does not mean "Go". It means "Go - If it's safe to go". If you are first in line (in particular), you should be (and in a test situation, are expected to be) checking. I check when I'm in a car. I certainly check when I'm on my bike. (And I most certainly check if there is any amber/green ambiguity). Simple.

Re: Another cyclist death: left-turning lorry

1 March 2015 - 9:22pm
It's no grey area: filtering on the left is perfectly legal.

Overtaking with a car or motorcycle on the left is also "legal".

This is the highway code

https://www.gov.uk/using-the-road-159-t ... 162-to-169

not a statement of law.

Re: Brakes work, shame brain doesn't

1 March 2015 - 9:19pm
Just want to add something else to the mix: colourblindness?

One of my clients used to fly phantoms for the RAF. I had a discussion about eyesight. He said that short/long sightedness is no problem as you can fix that with contacts or glasses.

HOWEVER colourblindness is an instant fail in the RAF. Why? Red & green colourblindness is problematic as that is how the port and starboard sides of the runways are marked so you can put your fighter jet on the Tarmac where you want it. His summary? Green and red are just about the WORST colours you would choose for runways.

Erm...So why are our traffic lights red and green? Think there could be a point...b

Re: Another cyclist death: left-turning lorry

1 March 2015 - 9:12pm
It's no grey area: filtering on the left is perfectly legal.

ASLs are no longer seen as the cure-all but they're still creating new ones at repainting time when there's nothing better possible without rebuilding.

Re: Brakes work, shame brain doesn't

1 March 2015 - 9:07pm
As far as the law goes they have both failed to stop for a red light, which should get them both a fine and because doing it with a motor vehicle endangers others and you have a licence you get three points on it too.

As far as damages go, it is going to be very hard for the cyclist to show in this case that the HGV's crossing the junction on a red light caused him to crash into it. Possibly he could say he was expecting it to stop before entering his path as many vehicles do stop beyond the white line.

As for the comment about reversing the positions of the vehicles, I reckon that most juries (if it got to them) would be more than happy to say it was all the cyclist's fault (doing what that lorry did) and the HGV never stood a chance with the cyclist riding into their path.

Re: Brakes work, shame brain doesn't

1 March 2015 - 8:28pm
kwackers wrote:JimL wrote:The lorry driver has ploughed through a red light. Do that often enough and he will certainly kill someone. The cyclist should have been a bit more aware for his own safety.
No he didn't 'plough' through it all. He jumped it certainly, but there was nothing in front of him and therefore no danger to anyone. Not only that but he was following a Boris bike so probably doing not much over 10mph, hardly 'plowing'...
See it all the time. Is it wrong? Of course.

A junction with lights on is just a junction. You still have to make sure nothing is coming before you venture out. The lights are nothing but a mechanism for giving everyone a bite at the cherry. They're only dangerous if people don't treat them as junctions and instead consider the green light to mean 'go-for-it' (in contradiction to the HC. There's a good reason they add the rider 'if your way is clear' to their advice )

Put simply if people are simply going to put their 'foot down' every time they get a green light then traffic light controlled junctions will become very dangerous - especially for slow moving traffic like bicycles that don't always have the time to clear the junction before the lights change.

I've read some nonsense in my time but that bit takes the biscuit!!
he did plough through, in fact he went through when his red light had being on for some time, that much is obvious, the vehicle was not part of a convoy or whatever other imaginary line of traffic, it was separated by a big gap. The HGV WAS a clear danger to other road users..are you really so blind to see what is clearly obvious to continue backing your version of events..deary me that's pitiful!
Yes the cyclist should have taken note of the law breaker and not gone so early/quickly BUT the lorry was the one breaking the law by far, not even close but going through a red when he had huge amounts of room to stop..

Re: Brakes work, shame brain doesn't

1 March 2015 - 8:14pm
JimL wrote:The lorry driver has ploughed through a red light. Do that often enough and he will certainly kill someone. The cyclist should have been a bit more aware for his own safety.
No he didn't 'plough' through it all. He jumped it certainly, but there was nothing in front of him and therefore no danger to anyone. Not only that but he was following a Boris bike so probably doing not much over 10mph, hardly 'plowing'...
See it all the time. Is it wrong? Of course.

A junction with lights on is just a junction. You still have to make sure nothing is coming before you venture out. The lights are nothing but a mechanism for giving everyone a bite at the cherry. They're only dangerous if people don't treat them as junctions and instead consider the green light to mean 'go-for-it' (in contradiction to the HC. There's a good reason they add the rider 'if your way is clear' to their advice )

Put simply if people are simply going to put their 'foot down' every time they get a green light then traffic light controlled junctions will become very dangerous - especially for slow moving traffic like bicycles that don't always have the time to clear the junction before the lights change.

Re: Brakes work, shame brain doesn't

1 March 2015 - 8:03pm
kwackers wrote:Tonyf33 wrote:but the lorry is in the majority of fault here..
....
Had the lorry been out there on it's own I'd have a smidgeon of sympathy but it wasn't. It was one vehicle in a queue of traffic going through the lights the cyclist ignored the highway code and simply went on the promise of a green light. IMO 95% his fault.
....
.

Eh?

The lorry driver has ploughed through a red light. Do that often enough and he will certainly kill someone. The cyclist should have been a bit more aware for his own safety.

Re: Brakes work, shame brain doesn't

1 March 2015 - 6:41pm
If you look at the second picture above and the lights were working properly it shows the lorry jumped TWO sets of red traffic lights. The taxi driver and the last cyclist may have jumped one set, but assuming lights were OK, the lorry driver has clearly committed an offence. There's nothing to indicate the bus jumped any lights - it's way ahead.

And the biggest complaint about cyclists is .....................

[XAP]Bob wrote:He was well past the STOP line though - he hadn't passed the light on the other side of the road either, but the lights are indicators, the location of their instruction is not determined by their position, but by the road markings... The cyclists are ahead of the stop line because there doesn't appear to be an ASL? Junction design fault?

Re: Brakes work, shame brain doesn't

1 March 2015 - 6:28pm
Tonyf33 wrote:Sorry but there is a very large gap between the taxi & cyclist on the boris bike (whom very likely actually crossed on green but was going slowly that the lights changed) and the 3-4 second red light jumper in the HGV! He wwas on his own..or can you not see the large gap?
And amber means stop, red means stop, neither of which the lorry obeyed..
How big? I think you need to watch it again!
Taxi enters the junction at 14s, boris bike at 15s and truck at 16s. That's one second between each.

Tonyf33 wrote:in your eyes it would seem that going on a green is worse than not stopping on an amber or a red that has being on for 3+ seconds?
You're very defensive - wasn't you was it?
Turn it around. Swap the truck and the bike, cyclist travelling across junction is killed by the truck who thought it OK to just go on green (or promise thereof) who's fault is it now?

In my eyes just moving forward without any regard for other vehicles and assuming you have right of way is frankly both stupid and criminal. I mean the guy missed a truck! A TRUCK! He probably has a driving license and he probably thinks when a light changes he should just charge across the junction in his car! Two people need points on their licenses there, but only one was responsible for the accident.

Re: Brakes work, shame brain doesn't

1 March 2015 - 6:21pm
Vehicles continuing to cross at a junction as the lights have just turned red is very common. There is a roundabout at Plymouth (Marsh Mills) where this happens at virtually every change of the lights. The lights are green, traffic flows through, then the amber light comes on, traffic continues to flow through, then it goes to red and two or three vehicles will still keep going. At the other part of the junction the lights change to amber from red as the red comes on on the other lights. By the time it is green and traffic has started to accelerate away from rest the vehicles which have jumped the red light are clear - only just, but they have gone.

The point is at this junction it is so common it is more or less accepted practice. I suspect this may be the case at this London crossing and if you watched it now you would see vehicles still crossing as the red light comes on. In other words, what the lorry did was probably not that unusual.

A vehicle or cyclist crossing a green light at speed the moment it goes green risks colliding with vehicles still squeezing through on red, which seems to be what happened to the cyclist in the video. He anticipated the lights changing and crossed them the instant they changed - and came a cropper. The lorry shouldn't have been there but it was and I doubt this was an isolated example of a vehicle jumping red lights at this crossing. Starting from rest builds in a delay. Looking left and right also helps as there might be an emergency vehicle about to cross the red lights. Even in my car I always check there is nothing coming and never take a green light as a justification for driving forward. On my bike I am always doubly cautious. Thinking you are in the right can lead to rites being read. Or "Don't claim your rites" as it used to say as you entered Carlisle - and may still do but I haven't been back there for ages to check.

Re: Brakes work, shame brain doesn't

1 March 2015 - 6:10pm
Tonyf33 wrote:The other shows that the cyclist hasn't gone past the light before it turns green..pretty clear cut in fact.


He was well past the STOP line though - he hadn't passed the light on the other side of the road either, but the lights are indicators, the location of their instruction is not determined by their position, but by the road markings...

Re: Brakes work, shame brain doesn't

1 March 2015 - 4:53pm
kwackers wrote:Tonyf33 wrote:but the lorry is in the majority of fault here..
Take another look at the traffic going through the lights.

See the bus, taxi and bicycle going through the lights immediately before the lorry? There's an entire stream of traffic going through.
Green doesn't mean 'go' it means 'go if your way is clear'. It wasn't but he went anyway despite several vehicles passing through in front of him.

Had the lorry been out there on it's own I'd have a smidgeon of sympathy but it wasn't. It was one vehicle in a queue of traffic going through the lights the cyclist ignored the highway code and simply went on the promise of a green light. IMO 95% his fault.

Another case I remembered. A few years ago a woman was jailed for 4 years for killing a cyclist who'd RLJ'd. The basic premise was she hadn't been paying attention and should have been able to stop. Once again 'green' doesn't mean 'go'.

Anyone who thinks the lorry driver is mainly at fault is guilty of thinking that 'green' means go - which is fair enough, it IS the modern way (at least judging by the amount of horn honking if a vehicle is late clearing a junction).
So what? Sorry but there is a very large gap between the taxi & cyclist on the boris bike (whom very likely actually crossed on green but was going slowly that the lights changed) and the 3-4 second red light jumper in the HGV! He wwas on his own..or can you not see the large gap?
And amber means stop, red means stop, neither of which the lorry obeyed..in your eyes it would seem that going on a green is worse than not stopping on an amber or a red that has being on for 3+ seconds?

Re: Brakes work, shame brain doesn't

1 March 2015 - 4:43pm
Tonyf33 wrote:but the lorry is in the majority of fault here..
Take another look at the traffic going through the lights.

See the bus, taxi and bicycle going through the lights immediately before the lorry? There's an entire stream of traffic going through.
Green doesn't mean 'go' it means 'go if your way is clear'. It wasn't but he went anyway despite several vehicles passing through in front of him.

Had the lorry been out there on it's own I'd have a smidgeon of sympathy but it wasn't. It was one vehicle in a queue of traffic going through the lights the cyclist ignored the highway code and simply went on the promise of a green light. IMO 95% his fault.

Another case I remembered. A few years ago a woman was jailed for 4 years for killing a cyclist who'd RLJ'd. The basic premise was she hadn't been paying attention and should have been able to stop. Once again 'green' doesn't mean 'go'.

Anyone who thinks the lorry driver is mainly at fault is guilty of thinking that 'green' means go - which is fair enough, it IS the modern way (at least judging by the amount of horn honking if a vehicle is late clearing a junction).

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