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Re: Yet another example of criminal justice

22 March 2015 - 2:13pm
Yes - I see that all right. But of course it doesn't explain how the guy referred to in this thread, who was prosecuted, got acquitted, after a full trial before a jury. Unless the CPS were negligent in not presenting enough evidence?

Re: Cyclist defence fund Michael Mason

22 March 2015 - 1:56pm
Leaving aside that the hi-viz issue is irrelevant and shouldn't have been mentioned by the police:

surely even mentioning hi-viz is incorrect: the flourescent part needs UV of which there is little at night, so only the reflective part is of interest, so the police didn't even get that right: it is is only the white/silver reflective part that is important at night so that is all that should be mentioned in respect of night time extra and optional safety equipment. Also, I don't think yellow/orange is a that good a colour at night.


Just to make clear, again I think the police were wrong to use hi-viz as an excuse for not sending a file to the CPS: I am just pointing out that even their wrongness is further wrong .

Re: Yet another example of criminal justice

22 March 2015 - 12:47pm
661-Pete wrote:thirdcrank wrote: ... Having said that, could you explain why you single out the CPS for criticism here?

It's something I'm sure I've explained in much more detail before, but there was a time when if there was a crash which the police got to know about, it was almost certain that somebody would be prosecuted for due care. Then, the CPS decided that wasn't appropriate. And, as I tried to explain in the post you quote, it has now become the exception for anybody to be prosecuted after a crash. The main exceptions are when somebody is killed. It's becoming increasingly easy to blame the victim.

Re: Yet another example of criminal justice

22 March 2015 - 12:31pm
thirdcrank wrote:To me, it's self-evident that careless /dangerous driving is defined by the driving itself, rather than the result of the driving. Having said that, it's the result of the driving, rather than the driving itself that generally decides whether a crash leads to an investigation and occasionally a prosecution. Crash into a tree and there may be no official action of any kind unless you or a passenger is killed or seriously injured. Just about everybody, including jurors, knows that. It's hardly surprising that they feel that defendants in "causing death" cases are being picked on only because there has been a death.

This situation was not reached overnight or for a single reason, but IMO, the CPS has a lot to answer for here.

In the meantime, everybody involved except the bereaved can sleep easily, knowing that this was a jury verdict.
Surely it has always been the case that the more severe the consequences of a crime are, the more serious the charges brought against the defendant. If you point a gun at someone, fire and miss, you can be charged and convicted of attempted murder, nothing more. If however you hit and kill your victim, the charge will be murder which carries a far more severe penalty. There is no difference in your behaviour or your criminal intentions, simply a quirk of fate that decided whether your victim survived or not.

Likewise with driving offences. If someone texts while driving and is caught, but without having any accident, the most that's likely to happen is penalty points. But if they cause a fatal accident, society understandably judges them far more harshly. So should the courts. Or should they? Is this justice?

Having said that, could you explain why you single out the CPS for criticism here?

Re: Grab Theft - handle bar kit

22 March 2015 - 11:00am
PH wrote:Drifter wrote:PH wrote:What makes it objectionable is it doesn't add anything to the information. If true and I've heard plenty of similar stories without ever seeing any facts, he stole it because he was a thieving scumbag, not because of his nationality.

It is the information! It's a fact! It's a description! It's a question specifically asked by the police. So there shouldn't be any objection!

The police would have also asked; height, build, hair colour, skin colour, distinguishing marks...
The way you report the story has a bias that isn't there in the facts.
it's the same as those newspaper headlines that shout "Cyclist mugs granny" when the muggers mode of transport isn't the relevant point.


It is in some ways lazy as opposed to accurate...

For instance how many times do you see the Sun describe a female as"an ageing ugly trout", it is always "pretty blonde" or similar

Re: Grab Theft - handle bar kit

22 March 2015 - 10:31am
I was told the other day about a cyclist having his Garmin edge nicked at a food station during a 100 mile charity race whilst he was having a bite to eat. However I won't add any facts about the guys that were responsible in case I get accused of being a neo-nazi, UKIP backing, facist!

Here are the pannier locks for sale on a webshop for those trying to avoid ebay - http://www.cycletourstore.co.uk/product ... k/#reviews

Re: Grab Theft - handle bar kit

22 March 2015 - 8:21am
Washington State runs a lot of ferries. Bikes are always first on, first off, to that end bikes are always parked at the front end of the ferry. A member of my club parked his bike in said place and by the time the boat got to its destination about 30 minutes later his GPS had gone. I can believe stories about bar bags etc. being nicked.

If you care to search through CrazyGuy you'll find one contributor who was camping remote British Columbia and who hung his Ortliebs from trees out of the way of bears. When he got up the contents of the paniers were strewn around. Eventually he realized it wasn't bears doing the damage as he first thought; the paniers themselves had been stolen and the contents left. Some folks will take anything if it's not nailed down. The writer offered no intelligence on the accent, colour etc. of the tea leaf.

Re: Yet another example of criminal justice

21 March 2015 - 11:18pm
To me, it's self-evident that careless /dangerous driving is defined by the driving itself, rather than the result of the driving. Having said that, it's the result of the driving, rather than the driving itself that generally decides whether a crash leads to an investigation and occasionally a prosecution. Crash into a tree and there may be no official action of any kind unless you or a passenger is killed or seriously injured. Just about everybody, including jurors, knows that. It's hardly surprising that they feel that defendants in "causing death" cases are being picked on only because there has been a death.

This situation was not reached overnight or for a single reason, but IMO, the CPS has a lot to answer for here.

In the meantime, everybody involved except the bereaved can sleep easily, knowing that this was a jury verdict.

Re: Utility Pannier Bags

21 March 2015 - 7:26pm
I've being using a set of 'Pro-Action' panniers for well over a decade. eventually the side seam on one started to split but I sewed it up with an industrial yeast bag inside & that has kept it going for another 2 years so far. The metal hooks are solid as a rock and affix to a std rack really well, the plastic clips for securing the flap work as well as they ever did, the extension drawstring is spot on, the zips on the back & side pocket work perfectly.. I paid I think £12 for them, they are approx 35l-40l the pair, for me at least they've being one of the best cycling bargains ever.

I now also use a Halfords 'bike hut' pannier bag on one side as it's got a flat base and seem much bigger overall(despite quoted 42L capacity), I can fit my 18.4" laptop in it easily for when I'm visiting the folks. unloaded however it's too floppy and the base does go a little too near the spokes though has never caught once. until I wrapped some electrical tape on the rack it would fly off with even a small knock of the heel but that's not an issue now and at least it's easy to take off at the shops to load up in store. It also has a waterproof cover hidden in a zipped base compartment.
Bought them new off ebay for £16 posted, they were £40 I think in store at the time, a few reviews suggest these are rubbish, some suggest very good, aside from the floppy nature unpacked I'd say my review would very good (Mine are dark grey not the newer light grey type)

Re: Yet another example of criminal injustice

21 March 2015 - 6:55pm
CPS
Factors that are not relevant in deciding whether an act is dangerous or careless

The following factors are not relevant when deciding whether an act of driving is dangerous or careless:
the injury or death of one or more persons involved in a road traffic collision. Importantly, injury or death does not, by itself, turn a collision into careless driving or turn careless driving into dangerous driving. Multiple deaths are however an aggravating factor for sentencing purposes (Sentencing Guidelines Council: Causing Death by Driving Guideline, page 5, paragraph 19);

...

In short: Safe, competent drivers may still be involved in fatal collisions.

Re: Yet another example of criminal justice

21 March 2015 - 6:52pm
Surely by definition if you kill (or SI) someone whilst driving your standard of driving IS far below that of everyone else, or are we accepting that all the other drivers that encountered X cyclist (or whomever is killed) on that given day are advanced drivers far above, in which case that means they are still below the norm. If that low level IS the 'accepted' norm why aren't all the other drivers killing and maiming?

Re: Yet another example of criminal justice

21 March 2015 - 6:37pm
661 Pete.I might be repeating myself. If I am,apologies. I read that so slow is the criminal justice system in Italy,and so 'variable' the decisions,that justice is often seen as 'denied'. Without faith in the judicial system some people have taken to resolving matters through the Camorra. I guess you go to the head honcho,put in your claim and 'the boss' sorts it out. Only later are you expected to 'pay-the-bill'. Legal costs,length of time to achieve equitable resolution,questionable court outcomes...can make the Comorra appear quite attractive to some.

Forgive the cynicism: British Justice: Black boy buys looted pair of trainers from Tottenham riots = 6 months in the slammer. White high-flyer chief executive in some banking biz,millions missin or improperly sold = no prosecution,maybe some fake contrition,a weak aplogy,then back to job with bonus+++.

The good ol' days: Smash up the restaurant or the town,urinate and wot-not. Good background,public schoolboy? That's high-jinks. For the council house kid,that meant Borstal and a criminal record that wrecked his life.

Re: Utility Pannier Bags

21 March 2015 - 3:23pm
I have a pair of bags from Basil. A double set that I leave permanently on the bike. The fixings are simple enough but also fiddly enough that they are unlikely to be just lifted from the rack. The bags are single compartment which I just drop my stuff into - usually in a pair of Co-Op bag for life carrier bags.

Re: Yet another example of criminal justice

21 March 2015 - 2:55pm
You have to read Bez's analysis of the case.

https://beyondthekerb.wordpress.com/201 ... ight-here/

Re: Utility Pannier Bags

21 March 2015 - 2:44pm
I have two sets of utility panniers.

For Sustrans Ranger work I've a set of worn out Carradice Carradura donated to me by a friend. Not waterproof, some holes, front pocket zips failed, frayed at the edges, clips on the straps and the hook elastics have broken and been replaced, various paint splashes; in short they've got character.

The commuter sports a single plain black Halfords bag, one of a pair secured for 99p off ebay quite a few years ago. Not waterproof, very floppy construction and some largish holes have worn into the bottom. To prevent things falling out and to add a little rigidity I constructed a shaped insert for the bottom of the bag from estate agent board. Hooks are simple metal loops but it also has a sprung clip and tensioning strap to keep everything in place. When the holes in the current bag get too bag I'll transfer everything to it's pair.

Utility Pannier Bags

21 March 2015 - 2:08pm
Just wondered what other people use and whether you have a preference for any particular kind or type...single pannier perhaps? , permanent or removeable, fixings and closure type etc...

I bought some SJS panniers last year (£8 on ebay) http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/sjsc-rear-pa ... prod11550/. The rack fixings are aweful, with the hooks too close together and flappy bungi cords. So I successfully modified them and they now stick to the rear rack like glue. viewtopic.php?f=5&t=79714&start=15 They may be light, but they are also made of cheap materials and now show signs that they are about to fall to pieces
They would be ok for occasional use. The velcro handle also made an execllent place to hold my mini D lock.

Re: It me or do SUVs alway drive to close

21 March 2015 - 12:45pm
blackbike wrote:I find it odd that 4x4 drivers who lumber towards me on narrow country lanes never want to pull over on to muddy verges so I can get past.

Like other drivers they expect me to get out of their way and get just as annoyed when I don't.

Why don't they use the off-road capabilities of their pride and joy?

Maybe 'cos they don't want to trash the grass verges (well they used to be grass...). Sussex drivers show seem to show no such inhibitions, IME.

Re: Lorries

21 March 2015 - 12:44pm
Thanks. I see I am way behind the times. Must have missed that post.

Re: It me or do SUVs alway drive to close

21 March 2015 - 10:57am
Isn't this something to do with the increasing width of cars generally (especially SUVs), coupled with habits ingrained from the time you first learned to drive. Nearside clearance is something which a learner finds difficult to master: but once learned, it becomes one of those instinctive 'feel' aspects of driving, so that few people regularly check their nearside mirror. The trouble is that the acquired 'feel' is the one that was right for your first car: and older drivers in particular are sticking with that, and aren't conscious of the need to adapt to the markedly increased width. That's my hypothesis, anyway.

Re: Yet another example of criminal justice

21 March 2015 - 10:51am
There is nothing in the following I have not posted before:

To prove a charge of careless driving, the prosecution must show that the driving fell below what is normally OK.

A person is to be regarded as driving without due care and attention if (and only if) the way he drives falls below what would be expected of a competent and careful driver.
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/52/section/3ZA

Dangerous driving "is far" below that standard.

... a person is to be regarded as driving dangerously if (and, subject to subsection (2) below, only if)—
(a) the way he drives falls far below what would be expected of a competent and careful driver, and
(b)it would be obvious to a competent and careful driver that driving in that way would be dangerous.
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/52/section/2A

This verdict simply shows how low are the standards expected of drivers in England and Wales. A verdict like this has no formal effect on future prosecutions ie it sets no binding precedents but it will surely influence future investigations and decisions to prosecute. (And probably whether or not anybody bothers to submit a file to the CPS for consideration.) The inevitably wide publicity this will receive will also strengthen the belief that "they can't touch you for it."

I'll not waste time by dwelling yet again on how we reached this deplorable situation.

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