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Re: Vote UKIP...

27 May 2014 - 12:51pm
I thought they already had, just using the name UKIP.

Adding the two shares of the votes together they got 52% of the vote.

So Alyrpal's betting for the favourites if it happens.

Re: Vote UKIP...

27 May 2014 - 12:46pm
Trigger wrote:I don't know why someone like Miliband doesn't just take the chance and risk all on forthright policies based on traditional Labour values, what is the worst that can happen that wouldn't happen should he lose based on his current wishy-washy, centrist garbage that he currently parrots?.

Thats a cracking idea, but I would like to see the Tories go for it too. It would be like a cage fight. Place your bets!

Al

Re: Vote UKIP...

27 May 2014 - 12:43pm
Seems to have worked OK for UKIP, the more the media and other parties have derided them the more determined it seems their voters were to vote for them.

Re: Vote UKIP...

27 May 2014 - 12:40pm
If he tried, the population would never hear about it.

The "popular" press would launch a lethal attack on him and the BBC etc would be too interested in reporting the attack and letting it dominate the agenda.
The policies would never make it through to the masses uncorrupted by the media.

Re: Vote UKIP...

27 May 2014 - 12:22pm
I don't know why someone like Miliband doesn't just take the chance and risk all on forthright policies based on traditional Labour values, what is the worst that can happen that wouldn't happen should he lose based on his current wishy-washy, centrist garbage that he currently parrots?

I think the situation is such that the voters are crying out for some conviction politics, we're all just sick and tired of tit-for-tat point scoring based on nothing really important at all, fight the real fight and leave the playground stuff to the kids.

Re: Vote UKIP...

27 May 2014 - 11:00am
The choice for Clegg was between an eternity in the political wilderness or five years as Deputy Prime Minister. For people who can see no further than the end of their own snouts, that's a no-brainer. Harold Wilson is reported to have said that a week is a long time in politics and horizons have shortened even more in the intervening half century. Five years = 260 weeks. They do say that he has a cushy number lined up in Europe when it comes to time for a career move. And it's just the same further down the pecking order with the likes of Huhne, who conveniently created a vacancy for the ambitious pack snapping at his heels. (With apologies for the mixed metaphor. ) Another who landed on his feet was D Alexander: who'd heard of him till there was an unexpected vacancy at the Treasury through the expenses scandal?

Mention of Inverness reminds me that they've got the referendum coming. As I've posted before, if they vote "Yes" and consign the Labour Party to oblivion in England, they may be in for a surprise when UKIP effectively becomes the EIP (NB "E" doesn't stand for "Europe" )
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
OnYourRight got in before me. I suspect that the single UKIP policy they mention could equally apply to people from Scotland as the rest of the world.

Re: Vote UKIP...

27 May 2014 - 10:41am
mjr wrote:Really what all parties except UKIP need to do is to neutralise the BBC-led UKIP marketing campaign and promote their own distinctive positive narratives. Most of them are looking a bit punch-drunk at the moment.
Agreed. The wall-to-wall media coverage of Farage and UKIP (but mainly Farage) over the last year has been incredible. And not just on the BBC.

The only way for other parties to counter that is to give the media an equally compelling vision, and preferably one that’s more hopeful, generous, and realistic – though Farage proves you don’t need those things if you have a cheeky grin and can think on your feet.

Despite Farage’s omnipresence, most people – including UKIP voters! – know surprisingly little about UKIP’s policies. They know UKIP hates the EU, and that seems to be enough for them. If you counter that UKIP’s disjointed soundbites don’t add up to much, they tell you: “but that’s the very point! The time for overarching ideologies is over. I don’t care about left or right. I care about specific problems. Let’s get out of the EU so we can solve these problems one by one.”

If you boil it down a bit further you find that many UKIP voters don’t care strongly about any policies except one: stopping immigration.

I think Farage and UKIP should be treated more seriously than their buffoonish appearance suggests. They have a lot of common ground with Le Pen’s far-right Front National in France, another party that sells an impossible dream of a re-industrialised and contentedly isolated country, just like the good old days. Parties that pander to people’s worst fears are not healthy for democracy.

CREPELLO: if the rise of the anti-European parties has the unintended consequence of accelerating reform of the EU, that may ironically be their undoing. Perhaps that’s the least harmful outcome we can hope for here (though it’s hard to see how reform could limit free movement of labour while preserving the other three EU freedoms of movement: goods, services, and capital).

However, the pro-European parties shouldn’t panic unduly. Anti-European parties have ‘only’ won roughly a fifth of the vote, and their MEPs cannot agree among themselves. Already UKIP has distanced itself from the Front National, not because there’s much difference in their views, but because in the UK even racists are polite, and Le Pen doesn’t sound polite to British ears. They won’t be an effective anti-European force while they remain factional and unmanageable.

Re: Vote UKIP...

27 May 2014 - 10:22am
Bicycler wrote:The whole system is far too adversarial. It encourages each party to drift to the centre to cater to the swing voters.
Also, the system has become too "leader centric". I have an MP. (S)he is meant to be in Westminster to represent (or as a delegate for) his/her Constituency; which means for everybody not just those who support his/her ideology.

So when I vote for an MP I do not want somebody who will just do what he is told be the party whips. Because such a system (as ours has now become) is little more than voting for a party leader. Party leaders, whips, etc. have too much power.

Ian

Re: Vote UKIP...

27 May 2014 - 10:18am
Mick F wrote:Clegg will be lucky to even keep his seat after the next general election, let alone still be leader. It he could turn the clock back, would he have taken the LDs into a coalition?

Personally, I'd have preferred Lab or Con to have formed a minority government, then called another general election maybe a year later. By that time, the electorate may have been more decisive.
I don't think the LD problem was going into a coalition and gaining some power (i.e. no longer "outsiders"). I think it was what they did when they got there. e.g. the student fees was an extreme form of breaking a written promise and almost immediately on gaining office. One day they were pledging to vote against student fees, the next voting for a massive increase. People quickly lose credibility when something is so blatant.

And since then they have become little more than cheer leaders for Conservative policies. And they have pretty well failed at getting their own really important things through (e.g. Westminster reforms). the only thing they can really "claim" is the £10k tax threshold yet those in real need dream of a £10k income (who are seeing their support dramatically cut). I suspect that they would have been better going into coalition with Labour, but Clegg seems to be a closet Tory so I don't think he would every have allowed it.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/may/26/nick-clegg-and-lib-dems-face-battle-for-survival Seems an "internal" (now leaked) opinion poll for the Lib Dems shows their expected obliteration and that Clegg would lose his seta.

Ian

Re: Vote UKIP...

27 May 2014 - 10:14am
Mick F wrote:Personally, I'd have preferred Lab or Con to have formed a minority government, then called another general election maybe a year later. By that time, the electorate may have been more decisive.
Well, it would have been a Conservative minority government. A Labour one would have been implausible with the way things were. Problem is that it wouldn't work. We'd just have ended up with a government which couldn't get its own policies through parliament.

The whole system is far too adversarial. It encourages each party to drift to the centre to cater to the swing voters. Despite arguing over the same centre ground they spend their time trying to exaggerate how different they are to each other. There is the implication that the other parties and their voters are self-serving and morally inferior, where (of course) this particular party is no such thing and just believes in doing the best thing for everybody Sadly, many voters believe that rhetoric. This results in a situation where people dislike people who vote differently to themselves and in which parties cannot allow themselves to be seen to agree with each other on virtually any policy. We need a proportional system which would encourage people to vote and stand for what they believe in and also encourage government through consensus rather than confrontation

Re: Vote UKIP...

27 May 2014 - 10:02am
Heres one for all you UKIP haters:
https://fbcdn-sphotos-a-a.akamaihd.net/ ... 9760_n.jpg

And… the above post highlights precisely what many UKIP voters are seeking…. Reform!

Al.

Re: Vote UKIP...

27 May 2014 - 8:59am
The problem with the situation we find ourselves in with regard to a EU referendum is that it is only an 'in/out' question. This tends to be what happens in politics when views get polarised. There is often no middle way. So come a vote, we will never get nuanced debate, just black and white statements and appeals. What about a third question - 'reform'?

I'd like to ask the ukip voters, apart from withdrawal from Europe, do they expect or want the rest of Europe to remain whole and unbroken? Because there is a huge risk that it could break up (which may happen anyway)and I think that would be a very dangerous process, if nationalism plays a dominant roll (think Ukraine).

If we don't like what Europe is at the moment, why not campaign to reform it's roll from within? I think the union is far from perfect. Now that all this disparate far right parties have gained MEP's, the EU process has undoubtedly been unsettled, although they won't vote coherently as a block.
I hope the EU leaders will realise that they have to reform and perhaps rein in the project a bit. But that is not the same as getting out, which promises a far more dangerous and uncertain outcome.

BTW, here's a very insightful article by the founder of UKIP, Alan Sked:
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... ns-monster

Re: Vote UKIP...

27 May 2014 - 6:14am
horizon wrote: ..............the Greens got three seats .............. When the Lib Dems get back on their feet, maybe they'll have an alliance.It will be many years before the LDs get back on their feet. Greens and LDs could indeed make an aliance, they may be good bed-fellows.

Even before this EU election, the LDs had lost much kudos and support because they sold out. The Cons lost a bit too, but not as much. Clegg will be lucky to even keep his seat after the next general election, let alone still be leader. It he could turn the clock back, would he have taken the LDs into a coalition?

Personally, I'd have preferred Lab or Con to have formed a minority government, then called another general election maybe a year later. By that time, the electorate may have been more decisive.

Re: Vote UKIP...

26 May 2014 - 11:58pm
I think we're far too hung up on the parties. UKIP is that big chunk of the electorate that Mrs Thatcher caught in the 1980s. Every prime minister since Atlee has relied on their votes: they are the swing voters in the middle who count the cash in their pockets and, if not happy, switch to the other side. It's the voters with the limited horizons, zero vision and suffocating self interest (apologies to those protest voters on here who voted for UKIP for other reasons).

Suddenly they've emerged from the woodwork as an actual party because (as others have said above), Cameron is stuck in coalition with the Lib Dems. He cannot pick up UKIP votes by moving further to the right. UKIP does have the momentum to pick up protest votes of all sorts but that will change when the parties re-align themselves for the election.

I'm tickled pink that the Greens got three seats. They'll never be a big party but they can have influence. When the Lib Dems get back on their feet, maybe they'll have an alliance.

Re: Vote UKIP...

26 May 2014 - 11:25pm
TonyR wrote:beardy wrote:There is an increasingly large portion of the population who are being pushed to the limit, they feel they have little to lose and possibly a lot to gain by any change in the system.

But why do they always go for the party that appeals to their worst xenophobic instincts?

They didnt though did they?

BNP, Britain First and a few other "proper" racist parties didnt do well at all.

UKIP are more appealing to your "Churchill was our greatest Leader" and "Defeating the Nazi's was our finest hour" type Patriots.

Re: Cycle rountes near Lochness? Cycle route 78?

26 May 2014 - 10:50pm
I had a cycle up to the top of Glen Strathfarrar last year and would definitely recommend. The roads are so quiet because of the gate - great for cyclists

Re: Nice lady,

26 May 2014 - 9:59pm
eileithyia wrote:Still wondering at all the references to driving schools / learner drivers.... as I did not...
Sort of crept in and stuck somehow.

But I was really surprised the other day; probably more by my own stereotyping than a drivers behaviour. Driving down a single track lane and a flashy black Audi coming the other way some distance off. I thought "road owner" so I pulled into a field entranceway and waited. Audi slowed and stopped beside me and driver did his Popeye impression (muscles covered with tattoos on display). I was expecting some verbal abuse so ignored it more intent on removing some insect intent on eating my leg. And driver said "Thank you". And with the insect getting the taste for blood and my own shock I just went "Uh" and the guy carried on. I felt a bit rude after that, and disappointed in my expectation (for want of a better word).

Ian

Re: Nice lady,

26 May 2014 - 9:51pm
Still wondering at all the references to driving schools / learner drivers.... as I did not...

Re: Vote UKIP...

26 May 2014 - 8:36pm
garybaldy is extrapolating a bit far. They'll listen for a year and see if that wins them any votes. If it does, they'll probably continue. If not, it'll be back to conviction politics.

I'd quite like to see more political parties listening to voters. I'd be more likely to vote for ones that did. Labour with epetitions and more recently their new supporter-type semi-membership and especially Greens have been getting better at this recently. The Conservatives seemed to have a bit of a go with their Red Tape Challenge and so on and then get cold feet and do what they liked anyway. I've not really seen anything from Lib Dems and UKIP in this but maybe that's just me.

Psamathe - isn't Cable one of the more right-wing possibilities, one of the Orange Book authors? The high LD vote in 2010 was thought to be due in part to former Labour voters wanting to teach Labour a lesson and maybe into coalition. I don't understand why LD would lurch even further right. They've almost no chance of moving right far enough to gain many UKIP voters and it would be almost certain to push their 2010 surge back towards Labour.

Really what all parties except UKIP need to do is to neutralise the BBC-led UKIP marketing campaign and promote their own distinctive positive narratives. Most of them are looking a bit punch-drunk at the moment.

Re: Vote UKIP...

26 May 2014 - 8:28pm
Psamathe wrote:Trigger wrote:Cable wouldn't get anywhere near the job, he's not on-message enough and is somewhat of a loose cannon, that's why they quickly squirrelled him away into some non-job.
On C4 news this evening, Lib Dems are talking about "anointing" Cable to be party leader a.s.a.p.

Ian

I'm surprised, unless they plan a really acrimonious split from the Tories, in which case he'd be first choice

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