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Re: another cyclist killed by a lorry in London

27 June 2015 - 6:52pm
mostly based on stereotypes

Which is probably quite suitable as we are talking about the interaction between two groups rather than two specific individuals.

Re: another cyclist killed by a lorry in London

27 June 2015 - 6:41pm
Flinders wrote:Okay, for those who think the stats may reflect women being more likely to go up the inside of vehicles in general, why is it one particular type of HGV that is over-represented? Do women, for some strange reason, only go up on the inside of tipper trucks? Or does that sort of truck have worse arrangements for mirrors?

There are certainly design features of construction vehicles that are likely to make them more likely to crush people. They are higher with bigger heavier wheels so there is a greater chance of being dragged under and run over, rather than being pushed over to the side.
http://lcc.org.uk/articles/lcc-challenges-construction-industry-to-adopt-its-safer-urban-lorry-to-reduce-lorry-cyclist-deaths

However, I'm not sure that a particular type of HGV is that grossly overrepresented when you allow for exposure. The figures I have seen compare the overall milage of different types of truck - typically trucks will do most of their milage on motorways between distribution depots away from town centres so will rarely encounter cyclists. London is a vibrant rapidly growing city with a lot of cyclists and a lot of building work going on so if you are a cyclist in London and encounter a truck it is more likely to be a construction vehicle than say a livestock transport vehicle, and vice-versa if you are riding on a country lane.
I'm female, and I don't go up the inside of trucks,

And neither have you been killed by one
but I have seen men doing it. Trucks also overtake me, sometimes close to/on junctions, however far over I am. Do they never overtake men or something? Do all men, or even most men, take the centre of the lane? I honestly doubt it.

A greater tendency for females to do X doesn't mean that ALL females do X while NO males ever do - or even the majority of females do X.
If say 1% of male cyclists regularly undertook left turning trucks and 3% of females then that would be sufficient to account for the difference in the casualty rate.
There is something else going on here, and we need to know what it is. Speculation has gone on long enough, we need hard evidence.
While most of the discussion on this thread is indeed speculation (mostly based on stereotypes), the tendencey for women to overtake on the wrong side is base on evidence:
See: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22931179
Bicyclist fatalities involving heavy goods vehicles: gender differences in risk perception, behavioral choices, and training.
Frings D1, Rose A, Ridley AM.

Abstract
OBJECTIVES:
Females are typically involved in fewer collisions when pedal cycling than males. However, female cyclists appear to be overrepresented in the number of fatal collisions involving heavy goods vehicles (HGVs). These collisions often involve cyclists passing HGVs on the side furthest from the HGV driver (nearside). It is hypothesized that this pattern of fatalities may be partly due to differences in how males and females perceive the risk associated with various cycling maneuvers. It is also hypothesized that this difference may be overcome with advanced training.

METHODS:4,596 UK cyclists completed an online questionnaire in which they reported their level of cycle training and rated the risk they perceived to be associated with various cycling maneuvers, the likelihood that they would engage in them, and history of collision involvement.

RESULTS: Females perceived a slightly greater level of risk to be associated with cycling. However, males differentiated between the risks involved in nearside and offside overtaking to a greater extent than females. Risk perception was significantly correlated with the reported likelihood that participants would engage in risky maneuvers such as overtaking on the nearside and also with past collision prevalence. Advanced cycling training was correlated with higher levels of perceived risk associated with overtaking on the nearside; however, basic cycle training was not.

CONCLUSIONS: Cyclists who do not correctly differentiate between the risks associated with nearside and offside overtaking may be more at risk of being involved in HGV-related collisions. Advanced cycling training is linked to more accurate risk perception. To reduce fatalities, public awareness campaigns should focus on the increased risk of nearside overtaking and encourage cyclists to take advanced training.

Re: Please help!

27 June 2015 - 2:57pm
horizon wrote:Although the OP mentioned traffic (for the obvious reasons), I think hills are initially the bigger problem with clipless. Given he may have high gears, wants to ride up steep hills and isn't quite ready, the chances are he'll need to think about getting off - by which time he hasn't the motion to clip out before the bike has stalled. It took me a while to get used to this and I don't think a high pressure situation like the 100 mile is the best time or place. Like others have suggested I too would say, ditch the clipless for now and then re-introduce them slowly and relaxedly until the fears are overcome and the full benefits (I do believe they exist!) can be enjoyed.


Agreed 100%. When road speed is dropping on a steep hill, it isn't the easiest time to unclip. There is also the temptation to stay in so as not to slow even further as you unclip, in the hope that you will make it. But if you don't, and have to stop, you fall over.

Re: Another death and inadequate sentence

27 June 2015 - 2:53pm
OTOH, if he'd been a driver killing a pedestrian or a cyclist, he'd have probably got a lesser sentence or none at all. Or maybe not even been prosecuted.

Re: Spa Cycles steel Audax - any reason not to?

27 June 2015 - 2:21pm
As a one bike does it all bike the Spa Audax does do very well, it could easily be built to 9.5kg. Now many will grimace at references to weight but it adds up at every acceleration you put in, so for the same effort as my road bike ( going by HR, average HR ) then it seems to be around 1-1.5mph average slower on the same routes ( remember this is 10.5kg bike + seat bag/tools 0.6kg + .75kg drink ). My road bike benefits with lower weight, narrower tyres on faster lighter wheels but it isn't practical, its the racing car whereas the Spa Audax is a ford focus ).The versatility of separate mudguard and rack mounts make it an excellent light weight tourer/ commuter. You can then trade the kilo's saved against a full on tourer for your panniers and their contents. If I had to give up all but one of the three bikes I mentioned the keeper would most probably be..... the cyclocross bike. Not what you want to hear I'd imagine but for genuine reasons. It's generally slower due to its weighter disposition but is fractionally more comfortable simply due to 35mm tyres, it can also handle any forest track or sustrans path ( they're quite gravelly where I live, large gravel about 30-40mm ). The spa audax with guards is probably at tyre limit of 28mm but should handle anything a dawes super galaxy would, clearly with less load.... but for road+rough off road tracks I feel the cx style is the better all round choice( kona jake has mudguard and rack fittings not all do if they full on cyclocross ).
So I give the thumbs up to the Spa if predominantly on metalled roads otherwise for commuting, distance and road+off-road touring some of the other alternatives ( adventure bikes, gravel racers, pseudo-cx bikes ) are worth investigating, whyte, kinesis, cotic, salsa etc.. too many to list. I think it's name "Audax" sums up exactly what it's design lends itself to perfectly, long miles at moderately fast speeds and posssibly with moderate luggage carrying. Discs are definitely worth considering too, pretty low maintenance and no rim issues, as I mentioned earlier for me it was purely costs for my project.

Re: Spa Cycles steel Audax - any reason not to?

27 June 2015 - 11:44am
PH wrote:At York Rally they were displaying the Touring model in green and a musky red/pink (Sorry wouldn't know how better to describe it)
So suspect is the right level of knowledge, but as they have done well and are increasing the range, offering more colours makes sense. You could always ring and ask.
Sounds promising, though I suspect (that word again!) the Tourer sells better than the Audax. Anyone know?

old_windbag wrote:One point to add and that is I can use three bikes at present, cx bike, super acciaio roadbike and the spa..... well since building it the spa has had most outings of the three so it must have something good about it as the others aren't bad at all.
Persuasive!

By the way, I think there’s something to be said for having a single bicycle. I know most people end up acquiring at least a couple (and some a dozen) over the decades, but there is an attractive simplicity about having just one. And if you do want just one bike, something like the Spa Audax may be ideal.

De Sisti wrote:Schwalbe Durano Plus. I do notice a difference in acceleration between the dynohub wheel
and the others on my different bikes.
Dynamo hubs are heavy but their weight is at the centre of the wheel so is easier to accelerate than the same weight at the rim.

Schwalbe claims the 25 mm Durano Plus is 380 g in the folding version or 450 g with a wire bead. Often true weights are a bit higher than claimed. There are two of them, too. These are relatively heavy tyres.

But probably you notice a combination of the weight of the hub, the drag of the hub, the weight and rolling resistance of the tyres and tubes, the slightly greater weight of the rest of the bike versus your other bikes, etc. Each factor alone may not be significant, but added together they would certainly be significant.

However, for someone like me that would use a Spa Audax with lightweight tyres and tubes, no hub generator, etc., the bicycle might feel almost as fast as a lightweight road bike.

Re: Spa Cycles steel Audax - any reason not to?

27 June 2015 - 10:34am
Samuel D wrote:
Which 25 mm tyres are you running, De Sisti? Maybe they’re heavier than the tyres on your other bikes. I wouldn’t expect a dynamo hub to make a massive difference in acceleration.
Schwalbe Durano Plus. I do notice a difference in acceleration between the dynohub wheel
and the others on my different bikes.

Re: Another death and inadequate sentence

27 June 2015 - 8:48am
"The primary object of an efficient police is the prevention of crime............"

The secondary objective - detection- has now become over-riding to the extent that this type of delinquency in a busy public place is largely ignored until something goes truly wrong.

Re: Another death and inadequate sentence

27 June 2015 - 8:05am
Of course if she had been wearing a h****t she might still be alive.

(Said not because I believe she should have but to highlight the different attitudes. It's the cyclist's fault she hit her head and died and the cyclists fault if they hit their head without one and die.)

[EDIT: And to prove my point. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-h ... s-33291008. "The trial at Inverness Sheriff Court heard that Craig Tetsill would have survived with head and neck injuries if he had been wearing a helmet".]


Given the circumstances I think he got off lightly.

Re: Another death and inadequate sentence

27 June 2015 - 6:37am
Valbrona wrote: Meaning ... the State should have in place systems to catch and fine/prosecute pavement cyclists, but it doesn't because its crap and nothing works in this country because the people who run the State are a bunch of imbeciles who fail abjectly in their responsibility to protect its citizens..

I don't think pavement cycling is the issue. How many people are killed by cyclists each year? There are many examples of legal shared use pavements so it can't be that dangerous. I used to use a 1/2 mile section of pavement on my commute as it was more pleasant than the road alternative. Number of peds met on that half mile averaged at less than 1. Number of gates opening on to it - 2. Perfectly safe IMO.

The condition of the bike may have played a part as well

The court heard the defendant’s bike was later examined and found to have had no brakes, a deflated back tyre, an aged and cracked front tyre and no bell.

http://droitwichstandard.co.uk/news/cyc ... oman-7084/

This case seems to be reckless cycling in a busy pedestrian precinct. The sentence seems about right given the circumstances.

Re: Another death and inadequate sentence

27 June 2015 - 2:41am
Grandad wrote:It works both ways.

Certainly. I don't think anyone on this forum would not want it to work both ways ... not that you are saying that it shouldn't.

I don't just blame the driver/cyclist in such incidents. The State has a legal and moral responsibility to be protecting its citizens, and this case illustrates just one failure of the State amongst thousands on matters of public safety. Meaning ... the State should have in place systems to catch and fine/prosecute pavement cyclists, but it doesn't because its crap and nothing works in this country because the people who run the State are a bunch of imbeciles who fail abjectly in their responsibility to protect its citizens.

Lets have the Local Council Officials in that place wherever it happened up in Court on a charge - alongside the pillock on a bike who killed that poor woman - for doing sod all to catch and fine/prosecute pavement cyclists that have probably plagued the streets of that place for years.

Re: Spa Cycles steel Audax - any reason not to?

26 June 2015 - 9:11pm
I've built a Spa Audax up from components from my old racing bike plus some new for various reasons. The componentry carried over were the campag veloce triple groupset and mavic open pro wheels. The new bits include charge spoon saddle, deda bars and stem and humpert seatpost. I've put on vredestein fortezza extremes in 28mm size, basically a lightweight ( 280gms ) all weather tyre. It's a lovely frameset with a nice carbon fork, pretty light at 2450gms in a 54cm( M ).. mine was only about 30gms different to the quoted weight, pretty good. Total weight for mine with mudguards, bottle cage, pedals is 10.5kg, not racing bike weight but not heavy. Without the guards and with a compact groupset ( current rather than the 2001 veloce I transferred over ) you coul be down at 9.5kg's. I think its an excellent frame to build a project bike with and it's competetively priced. The genesis equilibrium 2015 frame/fork also looks nice but the £150 saving of the spa can buy a nice wheelset. The equilibrium does also have the disc option if that appeals, I quite like them but the spa fitted my budget better and I'll just wait a little longer for the fun of discs.
Comfort wise it's hard to quantify a it is affected by tyres,saddle etc etc but suffice to say with the setup I have it's very good. It does have a spring like feel as you tick along, it's not as sprightly as my racing bike for obvious reasons but as an all round commuter, distance bike, light tourer it fits the bill well and it cope with most road surfaces well too. Clearly its a bike, so it won't smooth out everything but it does make a good job of most. I don't think you'll regret it if you go ahead, one thing to note is that I received a rather heavy stronglight headset with the F+F, I bought a fsa orbit mx to replace that, better design half the weight so it may be worth asking for an upgrade for change in price. A similar point was made above about the tange headset.
One point to add and that is I can use three bikes at present, cx bike, super acciaio roadbike and the spa..... well since building it the spa has had most outings of the three so it must have something good about it as the others aren't bad at all.

Re: Spa Cycles steel Audax - any reason not to?

26 June 2015 - 8:52pm
Samuel D wrote:Is there any reason to suspect Spa may offer other colours soon, as implied above?

At York Rally they were displaying the Touring model in green and a musky red/pink (Sorry wouldn't know how better to describe it)
So suspect is the right level of knowledge, but as they have done well and are increasing the range, offering more colours makes sense. You could always ring and ask.

Re: Spa Cycles steel Audax - any reason not to?

26 June 2015 - 7:16pm
The Thorn Audax is a good bit more expensive than the Spa Audax but has a steel fork rather than the Spa’s carbon-fibre. Whether that’s good or bad is up to you.

The other obvious difference is Thorn’s choice of colours other than Henry Ford black. Is there any reason to suspect Spa may offer other colours soon, as implied above? If so, I could be tempted! Though for me it would be my only bike, not an October to February bike.

Which 25 mm tyres are you running, De Sisti? Maybe they’re heavier than the tyres on your other bikes. I wouldn’t expect a dynamo hub to make a massive difference in acceleration.

Re: Day rides around Florence

26 June 2015 - 5:14pm
Thanks reohn2,

We have booked flights but not accommodation yet so basing ourselves in Siena after a stop over in Florence might be a nice option.

We are on cyclocross bikes so those strada bianche sound more than doable. Glad to hear about the local drivers, coming from London that will be a nice change.

Thanks,

Rob

Re: Please help!

26 June 2015 - 4:21pm
horizon wrote:Although the OP mentioned traffic (for the obvious reasons), I think hills are initially the bigger problem with clipless. Given he may have high gears, wants to ride up steep hills and isn't quite ready, the chances are he'll need to think about getting off - by which time he hasn't the motion to clip out before the bike has stalled. It took me a while to get used to this and I don't think a high pressure situation like the 100 mile is the best time or place. Like others have suggested I too would say, ditch the clipless for now and then re-introduce them slowly and relaxedly until the fears are overcome and the full benefits (I do believe they exist!) can be enjoyed.

That phenomenon got me up a few hills where I'd have been walking if I'd been on flats a couple of years back...

Re: Please help!

26 June 2015 - 4:17pm
I think the OP may be a she

Re: another cyclist killed by a lorry in London

26 June 2015 - 3:24pm
As it happens, today we came up behind a cement mixer lorry, which had just stopped in the road. Its reverse lights then came on and it was evidently trying to back into a building site beside the road. Both my wife and I stopped and hung well back. The road is fairly narrow, and to do anything else - to try and squeeze past - would have been idiotic and suicidal. Once the lorry was partly off the road, the driver waved us on with a gesture of thanks. Cooperation and courtesy between road users counts for so much - and saves lives! And evidently not all truckers are anti-cyclist! I just thought I'd say that.

Re: another cyclist killed by a lorry in London

26 June 2015 - 3:21pm
Okay, for those who think the stats may reflect women being more likely to go up the inside of vehicles in general, why is it one particular type of HGV that is over-represented? Do women, for some strange reason, only go up on the inside of tipper trucks? Or does that sort of truck have worse arrangements for mirrors?

I'm female, and I don't go up the inside of trucks, but I have seen men doing it. Trucks also overtake me, sometimes close to/on junctions, however far over I am. Do they never overtake men or something? Do all men, or even most men, take the centre of the lane? I honestly doubt it.

There is something else going on here, and we need to know what it is. Speculation has gone on long enough, we need hard evidence.

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