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Updated: 2 hours 24 min ago

Re: Cyclists are treated as if they are staionary.

9 hours 1 min ago
Same problem results in motorists pulling out from left hand side roads in front of approaching faster than expected cyclists. Quick look registers the rider but doesn't allow time to judge their speed.

Re: Another cyclist death: left-turning lorry

9 hours 17 min ago
Horizon

whilst I love old buildings and twisty narrow streets as much as the next person, you cannot deny that lots of places where lorries have to deliver to have poor access. I used to drive a minibus a lot, and there were roads I hated driving down, but where there was no alternative. Even small lorries delivering to shop on those roads could struggle to get through. And no amount of pedestrian access would compensate for the shops not getting their deliveries each day. Britain has a lot of infrastructure legacy that we have to live with.

Re: Another cyclist death: left-turning lorry

10 hours 12 min ago
It's also an awful lot of slippery slope from a few protected spaces for cycling to denying access to the carriageway, but many people used that for a long time to justify opposing it.

That has actually happened and there wasnt much slope between the two. When they want to forbid cyclists from using a road, they have to provide an alternative, sometimes a protected space for cycling filled the bill well enough for them.

Re: Another cyclist death: left-turning lorry

10 hours 26 min ago
beardy wrote:It is an awful lot of slippery slope between banning a particular manoeuvre which is believed to directly cause regular frequent deaths and denying access to public highways.
ITYM contribute to, not "cause". It's also an awful lot of slippery slope from a few protected spaces for cycling to denying access to the carriageway, but many people used that for a long time to justify opposing it.
reohn2 wrote:I'm going to pull the plug this,nothing is being advanced by me continuing.
I'm sorry anyone's position is immutable. To be clear, I don't feel the more damaging road user (whether motorist on person, or rider on walker) necessarily carries the most blame but they almost always carry some. It's part of why I'd like to see presumed liability here.

Re: Another cyclist death: left-turning lorry

10 hours 30 min ago
pwa wrote: But I do think that much of built-up Britain was, from a modern perspective, badly designed.

pwa: most of Britain was beautifully designed and we still benefit from it today. The streets were built to a pedestrian scale with delightful buildings on either side, doorways, shops, people, activity. Nothing wrong with built-up Britain.

Modern lorries OTOH are appallingly badly designed. They are far too high and wide for there to be good visibility close to the vehicle and far too large for the streets they apparently want go down. Failure on a large scale.

Re: Another cyclist death: left-turning lorry

10 hours 39 min ago
MJR
I'm going to pull the plug this,nothing is being advanced by me continuing.

Re: Cyclists are treated as if they are staionary.

10 hours 57 min ago
Absolutely. Larger vehicles (lorries, busses, etc.) are far worse.

e.g. cycling along at 20 mph in a 30 limit, vehicles don't seem to realise how long it would take to pass something if they were only going at 10 mph. so they (without thinking) seem to do the same as when passing a stationary object.

Maybe cars misjudge it as well but being shorter results in things not getting so close.

And the absolute insult (a month ago) was a Travis Perkins lorry pulling in far far too close, only to present me with a real close-up view of their "Cyclists Stay Back" sticker on the back of the lorry !!!

Ian

Re: Another cyclist death: left-turning lorry

10 hours 58 min ago
It is an awful lot of slippery slope between banning a particular manoeuvre which is believed to directly cause regular frequent deaths and denying access to public highways.

Re: Another cyclist death: left-turning lorry

11 hours 3 min ago
pwa wrote:It's not your fault, as it's not clear from Google, but Pontycymmer is in a very steep sided valley, and turning off the main street involves a very steep sudden climb in most cases. Almost all the streets have characterful terraces of stone houses. Separation of use is not something I can imagine in that situation.
I thought it was pretty clear from both the Streetview (you've handrails and other telltales) and the contours on the map I linked. It's not the Italian mountains, though, and they still separate use there.

Otherwise, you get Pontycymmer's current situation of all the characterful streets being blighted by motor traffic and the safest streets for non-motorised users being the least convenient ones at the top and bottom (although cycle collision stats look marginal, with one slight injury at a crossroads on Victoria Street and I'm not aware of the Welsh equivalent of http://road-collisions.dft.gov.uk ).
beardy wrote:... I don't think this law's going to happen soon. Could you stick to more realistic measures like improving junction layouts?

No, I will not.

Just because they may not want to deliver it, doesnt mean that we are not going to self-censor it from our lists. same goes for presumed liability, we are not going to say "The Daily Mail doesnt like it, so thats the end of that".

If I have to settle for peanuts like "improved" junction layouts, that will not stop me suggesting what we really should be getting. Not that I am particularly in favour of an inside filtering ban but it is an option and I also think it is a more viable and possible option than you do, there is quite widespread support for restricting cyclists' activities.
Firstly, if you can start that ball rolling, where do you think it will it stop? Cycles banned from all rural A roads? B roads too? All routes with lorry signs? All roads where off-road tracks exist, no matter how crap?

Secondly, I wasn't entirely serious and was simply reversing the argument often posted by law-change advocates against infrastructure campaigns, such as viewtopic.php?p=668185#p668185 and many others.

Re: Not all bad..

11 hours 7 min ago
pwa wrote:A car followed me at a respectful distance for over a minute on a hill with no good passing spots. A school minibus did the same a little later...
I would pull over and let the vehicles past in that situation, but I suppose there are different schools of thought. Still, glad you had such a nice ride.

pwa wrote:...And a farmer called his very well behaved sheepdog to heel as I approached and we exchanged cheery hellos as I passed. It was nice to be on the bike.
Not a sheepdog, a snowy landscape (England, not Wales!), but that put me in mind of this, by the cycling artist Frank Patterson:

Patterson Byway Riding (snow) edit (Large).jpg

Cyclists are treated as if they are staionary.

11 hours 16 min ago
I think that most of my conflicts with non-belligerent motorists come down to the fact that they have failed to take into account the fact that I am moving. They sub-consciously plan their route as if I am a static item like a bollard rather than a moving object.

This is the most common reason for cars and more importantly HGVs cutting across me when they overtake. They did not mean to cut across me, they just complete the manoeuvre as if I was totally static rather than just going a bit slower. I bet that the majority of left hooks are down to this.

Re: Pinch points.

11 hours 27 min ago
It is never a threat from cars behind you, they have already come alongside and then it is just a battle of wills. Your ears tell you whether they are planning coming through or holding back even with earphones on.

Re: Another cyclist death: left-turning lorry

12 hours 25 min ago
reohn2 wrote:IMO that's a perfectly reasonable rule/law to implement which should also be followed up with a public information schedule,including TV,radio,billboard and any other media available used to reinforce and drive home the message.
You'd struggle these days to reach everyone. It's not like the old days when pretty much everyone sat in front of one of the 3 tv channels on an evening. I can go weeks without watching TV or listening to the Radio. I don't see any billboards and I tend not to watch anything containing ad's and use ad blockers on my computers. In short it'd be too expensive.

Out of interest, just how many deaths are actually due to cyclists riding up the inside of lorries?
How many are due to lorries overtaking cyclists and then turning left? (Certainly I know of more of these than the first).

What would concern me is survivors justice. "Sorry m'lud but they must have cycled up the inside of my lorry, as a professional driver with 40 years blemish free driving..." yada yada.

In short I think that even if you spent a small fortune I'd put money on it you'd barely dent the KSI's. OTOH it's not beyond the wit of man to make sure lorries are safer both by design and in the way their operated. I'm more than a little suspicious that all these deaths involve tippers - a truck type amazingly over-represented and which IME are frequently driven so badly as to be criminal (Grundy's Skip Hire of Widnes - I'm looking at you).

I've no issue with education (or attempts thereof) but it should be done hand in hand with other things because otherwise I reckon it's a waste of time.

Re: Another cyclist death: left-turning lorry

12 hours 27 min ago
I was a regular on those roads, doing multidrops from Cardiff and general van deliveries. Those roads were quite memorable as you are driving along permanently trying to squeeze through, dodging mirrors of parked and approaching cars. The state of constant concentration for such precision was quite tiring.

However they are pretty safe for vulnerable road users because I had to keep the speed of my van down and there was no space to try and squeeze past, you had to wait for a passing place.

Re: Another cyclist death: left-turning lorry

12 hours 39 min ago
Alan (in Wales?)

How would you suggest we improve matters in the nineteenth century roads of Pontycymmer, where the roads are fairly narrow, cars have to park on the street, delivery vehicles have to use the same roads as cyclists and pedestrians. There is a very nice cycle track, but people have to walk or cycle down the streets to get to it. Do you want to go up there and tell people that they cannot have cars any more? Do you suggest deliveries to shops are forbidden, or can only happen after midnight? I'm not sure how you would change things for the better in the real world outside London. We don't start with a clean slate. We start with what we have.

Re: Pinch points.

12 hours 42 min ago
I see no need for a mirror at no point in all of this am I unaware what the cars are doing or where they are.

Re: Pinch points.

12 hours 46 min ago
Just what your doing. I presume you use a mirror. Knowing when the near misses are coming makes mitigating them easier. They wouldn't stop me using a road but they make it much less relaxed. I could see less confident cyclists finding them a nightmare.

Re: Another cyclist death: left-turning lorry

12 hours 47 min ago
It's worth pointing out that if the topics had not been separated - at my request - this thread would have included discussion of the runaway lorry which killed four people including a toddler using a pedestrian crossing in the care of her grandmother. It's dangerous machinery in public near vulnerable people. Different circumstances but similar underlying issues. Expediency rules! OK?

Re: Pinch points.

12 hours 49 min ago
Yup, the only answer seems to be to move ostentatiously into primary position as you approach the squeeze point.
The most disastrous ones round here are on the B3354 through Colden Common - see if you can spot the flaw in this: http://goo.gl/maps/OUciO

Re: Another cyclist death: left-turning lorry

12 hours 53 min ago
beardy wrote:.......I thought XAPBob's post above sums it up very well, though I would offer another option. A complete ban on cyclists (or anybody else) filtering on the inside of HGVs and possibly every other motorised vehicle. If the public were capable of dealing with it, this could have the exception for marked mandatory cycle lanes of a significant width, like in some other countries but I dont think our drivers could cope with it.
IMO that's a perfectly reasonable rule/law to implement which should also be followed up with a public information schedule,including TV,radio,billboard and any other media available used to reinforce and drive home the message.

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