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Updated: 2 hours 6 min ago

Re: Ramming cyclist at only 10mph is OK

2 hours 43 min ago
Kwackers,

Well done for contributing to the CDF and Michael Mason case - making me feel I ought to do the same. However, sorry, but I just can't agree that cyclists breaking the law themselves will do anything get drivers to behave better. That route is a race to the bottom and a very dark and scary place it'd be - in my view.

Re: Ramming cyclist at only 10mph is OK

2 hours 57 min ago
danhopgood wrote:Yep, due to lack of resources.
Nothing to do with resources and everything to do with attitude. We have policing that's decided by whatever current itch the public has and nothing at all to do with what's right.
As long as the majority aren't cyclists then don't expect anything to change.
danhopgood wrote:Yep again. When people are getting off scott free for killing someone it tells us something about society - that the majority (i.e. a jury) don't value vulnerable road users as they should. Surely the solution to that is to change the judicial process rather than abandon the law?
Good luck changing that. Trial by jury is sacrosanct to your average Joe, I doubt they'd ever give it up. Which takes me back to the first point; your average juror is a motorist therefore don't expect justice.
They'd take a £300 lump out of the bike of course. Or worse, the cyclist. And their justification would be "cos that's what cyclists do to us" - whether they're actually right or wrong. It's what they think that matters. No rational thought, taking into account all the circumstances.
That may well be true but it's difficult to see how a motorist could defend themselves against such a charge (as this case proves).
danhopgood wrote:There are plenty of cases where people have ended up in jail for taking the law into their own hands - people who beat up burglars for example. I'd say not getting a criminal record and potentially losing your job, family and friends is a pretty good reason.
Hmmm.... You'd have to do something particularly stupid to end up in jail and even then the public are usually of the opinion that burglar deserved it (even when the action in question is shown to be OTT).
Anyway in the case we're talking about kicking a car having been in an altercation where your safety is compromised. I suspect (if caught) you'd be unlucky to end up doing any more than paying for the damage. It'd be a rare case whereby someone ended up in prison for what appears to be a reaction to nearly getting wiped out.

In the long term it's quite likely such behavior would reduce such instances to near zero as well as reducing KSI's significantly. Most motorists don't see cyclists as a threat and so dismiss them. Seen as a threat they'd take notice and avoid.
danhopgood wrote:Why if the law and enforcement are the problems aren't cyclists acting as one to help those trying to improve things? I see the fund for the private prosecution in the Michael Mason case has yet to reach its target.
I think most cyclists think such events are rare, perhaps even brought on by the victim themselves (you see a fair bit of victim blaming on here even on relatively mundane posts. "Your road position is wrong, if that were me..." etc etc).
That combined with actually putting their hands in their pockets...
(FWIW I contributed to the Michael Mason case, just as I've donated to the cyclists defense fund in the past.)

Re: Ramming cyclist at only 10mph is OK

2 hours 58 min ago
danhopgood wrote:kwackers wrote:Headcam evidence is routinely ignored by the police......
Yep, due to lack of resources..

I don't think that that is correct. Resources will always be finite. What we are talking about is priorities ie how the available resources are used. Traffic enforcement is no longer the priority it once was. This isn't something that can be switched on and off. Or rather, once the experience and expertise have been lost, they will take a long time to rebuild, in the unlikely event that somebody decides that should happen. If people delegated to deal with complaints of bad driving are unaware of the law concerning Notices of Intended Prosecution, it's a sign of how bad things have become.

viewtopic.php?p=873531#p873531

At present, the resources devoted to policing are being reduced, which makes decisions on priorities even more important. If the Michael Mason case shows anything, it's that even the commitment to dealing thoroughly with fatal collisions is threatened.

Re: Ramming cyclist at only 10mph is OK

3 hours 8 min ago
I'd be unwilling to pass judgement on this case because (confession alert!) I can imagine a (very) slightly unwiser version of myself being on either side of this silly story. Obviously something happened to spark off a bit of road rage. A car door was damaged (yes, I can imagine being stupid enough to do that) and that, I guess, led the driver (already having a techy moment) to become angry and out of control. The cyclist makes off and the driver pursues him. And having caught up, cannot think of any action other than bumping in to him. Hopefully the bump was intended to stop him rather than injure, but I bet even the driver herself is not sure about that. If I had been that driver and done something so stupid and potentially dangerous, I would have regretted it immediately. This mess is what happens when we let anger take over. Reason and fellow feeling go out of the window.

Both parties should have been sent on an anger management course.

Re: Ramming cyclist at only 10mph is OK

3 hours 44 min ago
kwackers wrote:Headcam evidence is routinely ignored by the police......
Yep, due to lack of resources.
danhopgood wrote:Lack of enforcement is a problem. People taking the law into their own hands is not the solution to that problem - it'll make things worse - in my view.

kwackers wrote:That may well be true, but in the real world not only is nothing happening but it's actually getting worse. When folk are getting off scott free after killing others then something has to give.
The uncomfortable reality is that if every cyclist who had their safety compromised left a dent in the offenders vehicle then most folk would give us a wide berth and not only that but in an attempt to 'fix' the problem the authorities would be forced to take our concerns on board.

Yep again. When people are getting off scott free for killing someone it tells us something about society - that the majority (i.e. a jury) don't value vulnerable road users as they should. Surely the solution to that is to change the judicial process rather than abandon the law?

If as you suggest every cyclist who thought their safety was compromised left a £300 dent in the cars concerned, what would be the consequence when car drivers though they'd had their safety compromised? They'd take a £300 lump out of the bike of course. Or worse, the cyclist. And their justification would be "cos that's what cyclists do to us" - whether they're actually right or wrong. It's what they think that matters. No rational thought, taking into account all the circumstances.

kwackers wrote:The idea that taking the law into your own hands doesn't provide a solution isn't in itself proven and if nobody else is prepared to do it for you then why shouldn't you do it yourself???

There are plenty of cases where people have ended up in jail for taking the law into their own hands - people who beat up burglars for example. I'd say not getting a criminal record and potentially losing your job, family and friends is a pretty good reason.

Why if the law and enforcement are the problems aren't cyclists acting as one to help those trying to improve things? I see the fund for the private prosecution in the Michael Mason case has yet to reach its target.

Re: Ramming cyclist at only 10mph is OK

3 hours 50 min ago
blackbike wrote:That fat criminal obviously needs more exercise so a driving ban would do her good.
blackbike wrote:I think they mention it because she is wearing such a poor choice of clothes herself. They show off her fat figure to maximum effect.
Less of the fat stuff please. It just stigmatises innocent people. Her body shape is utterly irrelevant to her horrible actions.

Re: First time this year camera on bike - and an incident!

4 hours 20 min ago
An all too common occurrence when I am out, happens almost every ride. It is not the majority of drivers, most slow down(I always take primary) but there is a significant number that try and squeeze past, like in the video, or lay on the horn. Every ride it is something, blind bend overtakes, crossing double whites. laying on the horn when I'm in primary on a narrow road, when there are on coming vehicles, close overtakes, punishment passes. I even got deliberately knocked off once, but, he managed to "find" a witness to say that he never touched me. I just try to make sure I have somewhere to escape to.

nil illegitimi carborundum

Neil

Re: Ramming cyclist at only 10mph is OK

4 hours 33 min ago
I'm not saying I will or I won't, but my 5.5lb chainlock is now kept at the top of my Pendle for easy reach.

Re: Ramming cyclist at only 10mph is OK

4 hours 41 min ago
Elizabethsdad wrote:What I don't understand is why half the article is blathering on about the driver being fashion designer and her career - what has that got to do with the price of onions in this case?

I think they mention it because she is wearing such a poor choice of clothes herself. They show off her fat figure to maximum effect.

Re: Ramming cyclist at only 10mph is OK

4 hours 43 min ago
I think that once someone has shown they are prepared to deliberately use a car as a weapon they should be banned from driving for life.

That fat criminal obviously needs more exercise so a driving ban would do her good.

Re: Ramming cyclist at only 10mph is OK

4 hours 44 min ago
What I don't understand is why half the article is blathering on about the driver being fashion designer and her career - what has that got to do with the price of onions in this case?

Re: First time this year camera on bike - and an incident!

4 hours 47 min ago
Unfortunately I've seen worse. A couple weeks ago, the club prez and I were returning to Bolton after a nice relaxing Saturday social ride along Rivington Lane....https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.62450 ... !2e0?hl=en
Going round one of the bends (I think it was this one) some complete eejit in a Honda Civic overtook us ON the bend INTO oncoming traffic from the opposite lane doing about 30 ish mph, saw there wasn't enough room for all, just about made it past me, swerved towards club prez almost taking him out and hit the oncoming cars wing mirror and then put his foot down for a quick getaway. The hit car slammed his/her brakes on by which time the offending muppit had disappeared up the road and nothing could be done. I'm not sure prez knew how close to getting an ambulance ride to the ER unit he was but from my seat, the future at that moment looked horrendous.
I only wish the batteries of both my cameras hadn't packed up months earlier or the footage would've been shipped off to the local constabulary pronto.

Re: Ramming cyclist at only 10mph is OK

4 hours 47 min ago
danhopgood wrote:If there's been a traffic offence - yes it should be reported to the Police. Police resources are such that only the serious problems are likely to get looked at though and getting enough evidence is difficult. Head cams are symptomatic of a way of doing this.
Headcam evidence is routinely ignored by the police. Reporting stuff simply provides you with a crime number. They may as well simply issue them online with a single click then at least the level of expectation wouldn't be unrealistic.
danhopgood wrote:Lack of enforcement is a problem. People taking the law into their own hands is not the solution to that problem - it'll make things worse - in my view.
That may well be true, but in the real world not only is nothing happening but it's actually getting worse. When folk are getting off scott free after killing others then something has to give.
The uncomfortable reality is that if every cyclist who had their safety compromised left a dent in the offenders vehicle then most folk would give us a wide berth and not only that but in an attempt to 'fix' the problem the authorities would be forced to take our concerns on board.

The idea that taking the law into your own hands doesn't provide a solution isn't in itself proven and if nobody else is prepared to do it for you then why shouldn't you do it yourself???

(P.S. I'm playing devils advocate here but there's a serious point to be made.)

Re: Ramming cyclist at only 10mph is OK

4 hours 55 min ago
kwackers wrote:What's the alternative? Report it to the police? Because that's been proven to work (you can't expect justice even if the end result leaves you dead)...
£300 sounds like a decent alternative to a 'fine' to me.

If there's been a traffic offence - yes it should be reported to the Police. Police resources are such that only the serious problems are likely to get looked at though and getting enough evidence is difficult. Head cams are symptomatic of a way of doing this.

Lack of enforcement is a problem. People taking the law into their own hands is not the solution to that problem - it'll make things worse - in my view.

Re: Ramming cyclist at only 10mph is OK

5 hours 3 min ago
danhopgood wrote:Verge? £300 worth of damage says at least one cyclist did take the law into their own hands!
What's the alternative? Report it to the police? Because that's been proven to work (you can't expect justice even if the end result leaves you dead)...
£300 sounds like a decent alternative to a 'fine' to me.

Re: Ramming cyclist at only 10mph is OK

5 hours 36 min ago
Vantage wrote:And folk wonder why some cyclists are on the verge of taking the law into their own hands. Disgusting.

Verge? £300 worth of damage says at least one cyclist did take the law into their own hands!

Re: Ramming cyclist at only 10mph is OK

6 hours 5 min ago
Hitting someone with a car at 10mph (according to the judge) is a bit more than a nudge. Cars are particularly heavy pieces of equipment and if she'd misjudged her reflexes or the cars braking system, broken bones or death (extreme case I know) might have resulted. The judge acknowledged she did it deliberately in an effort to stop the cyclist.
If someone had scratched my bike and I then threw my 5.5lb lock at them to stop them, I'd be up for GHB and I doubt a judge would be so sympathetic to my reasoning. It's not far off shooting someone in the leg with a gun to stop them. Cars and guns are both deadly weapons.
£300 worth of damage to a car is easier to repair than the potential loss of life. This should have been a much more severe punishment.

Re: Ramming cyclist at only 10mph is OK

6 hours 20 min ago
I'm not sure how I feel about this, really. It sounds like a severe loss of cool on both sides. Damaging a car door may be tempting, but it's a bit naughty. And nudging someone off their bike with your car is inexcusable. Not the same as driving into them at speed but, yes, it could cause harm. It sounds like two people having a moment they would rather forget.

Ramming cyclist at only 10mph is OK

7 hours 17 min ago
http://www.pressreader.com/uk/daily-mai ... 0/TextView (see left-hand article)
Just a fine and penalty points for using car as offensive weapon! (And no MOT!).

Re: First time this year camera on bike - and an incident!

7 hours 41 min ago
As others have said, this is a very common situation, especially on busy roads - I don't deny it. It was chance that I happened to have my camera running, and what with my brief explosion of anger - followed by the remark "You're going on Youtube" - I decided it was worth putting up as a discussion topic.

Thing is, although it's common enough, I get plenty of motorists who, on the other hand, when they see me in primary approaching the bollards, dutifully fall in behind me. Good for them! I tend to quite ostensibly move over to the left once the bollards are passed, so as to signal "Ok you can pass now" - although at this particular location the bollards are immediately followed by a hump-bridge, so it's not a good idea to let following cars overtake immediately. There are two sets of bollards a short distance apart, with a side road between, sometimes there's room to let one car pass between the sets. Cooperation between road users - that's the name of the game!

I'm not publicising the car's numberplate, but I've made a note of it. Typical over-aggressive driving, the sort we can well do without.

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